Thread: Mens Shed Dust Collection

Originally Posted by QC Inspector

Thanks Bob. I sometimes play with an On-line Duct Friction Loss Calculator to try different configurations of piping to see whether to make my future system most efficient, or convenient, or a compromise somewhere in between. I'm glad to see it parallels your calculations, not that I'm checking up on you. I learned from the information in this forum that even a CV max will be limited by the openings in the machines, so I know I'll be chopping holes in them and enlarging the ports. Any excess duct capacity will be used with a bell mouth over or beside the machine to grab any escaping fines.
Pete

That calculator looks pretty good. and I am more than happy that someone does check on me because i am more than capable of making mistakes and am please if someone corrects them.

This is the pressure drop calculator I usually use; Pressure Drop Online-Calculator
I used a fair bit when I was working mainly because it allows pipe roughness to be selected as numerical input and I became quite familiar with using it.
I even did a few comparative measurements and I was pleased to see how accurate it was.
The down side is it only calculates one specific section of ducting/junction at a time.

Bill Pentz StaticCalc is good for systems with a range of pipe/fitting diameters

Any excess duct capacity will be used with a bell mouth over or beside the machine to grab any escaping fines.

This is also what I like to do as well, and is one of the benefits of having a large capacity system all to oneself.

As you say, the dominating factor is nearly always the machine ports and cabinet breathability so it makes sense to spend more time on these than we normal would think about doing.
Ultimately the only way to assess these is by measurement even though it takes some time to determine correctly.

Got a clear run this morning and finished off some blast gates.

Gluing the PVC pipe ends to a gate.
GateGLueup.jpg

First 3 gates complete.
Underneath you can see the Al road sign on which the next 4 gates are marked out on ready for cutting.
The Al road signs came from a major pubic hospital that was closed down in 2014 and our mens shed had access to a heap of stuff from the site before it went to salvage.
We got about 20 x 3mm Al plate road signs ranging from 300 x 1200, to 1200 x 2400 - they were amongst the best scores at the hospital
gates2go.jpg

4 blast gate blanks cut out with WW BS and ready for edge sanding.
Moregateblanks.jpg
The process sounds quick but this is only the start.

After sanding the pieces are drilled and trial assembled and then the edges are sanded again so the middle panel slides smoothly.
The the stops are added and the middle panel is slid over to one side and a pilot hole drilled through all 3 pieces so that the duct holes line up.
The the big holes are cut and PVC ends fitted and glued.

If I was doing this again I would make a accurate drawing and get then accurately cut with a water jet.

Bob
These gates look very nice and I am sure they work well with little leakage. However with a little effort they could be easily automated with a cheap linear actuator off ebay. Both linear and rotary 12V versions are available. If these gates are placed close to the main trunk they are up high and not easily reached. You could even build a simple logic circuit to limit the number of gates open at once to 2 or 3. Even turn on the CV automatically with a delay on turning off to clear the trunk.

I personally use a Greengate automator on my system. I have had it for many years and it came with 100mm gates. When I upgraded to the Clearview I was forced to purchase several 150 & 125 mm gates. The larger sizes were not cheap but they were originally aimed at commercial rather than hobby systems. You can use up to two gates on each station so I can still use a 125 & 100mm gate together on my bandsaw etc. If it ever breaks I will be lost without it. The newer models have gone upsize in both number of gates controlled and price. Way out of my price range. Making my own may be an option with modern electronics
Cheers
Ron

Originally Posted by ronboult

Bob
These gates look very nice and I am sure they work well with little leakage. However with a little effort they could be easily automated with a cheap linear actuator off ebay. Both linear and rotary 12V versions are available. If these gates are placed close to the main trunk they are up high and not easily reached.

These rocker style gates gates are located next to the trunk line at the mens shed, so 3.2m above the ground, and the reason I have gone for this design is that these gates can be easily operated by a pull cord like the one shown in the photos which is one I have in my shed.
The gate is located at about 2.5m above the floor but a quick yank on the cord switches it the other way.


In the mens shed set up we will have separate cords attached to different coloured balls (one colour for open and one for closed.
It will be easy to tell from the other side of the shed if a gate is open or close depending on which ball is up or down.

You could even build a simple logic circuit to limit the number of gates open at once to 2 or 3. Even turn on the CV automatically with a delay on turning off to clear the trunk. I personally use a Greengate automator on my system. I have had it for many years and it came with 100mm gates. When I upgraded to the Clearview I was forced to purchase several 150 & 125 mm gates. The larger sizes were not cheap but they were originally aimed at commercial rather than hobby systems. You can use up to two gates on each station so I can still use a 125 & 100mm gate together on my bandsaw etc. If it ever breaks I will be lost without it. The newer models have gone upsize in both number of gates controlled and price. Way out of my price range. Making my own may be an option with modern electronics

You are right that adding an actuator to these gates would not be that difficult.
I have looked in some detail at automated systems and have built a prototype pneumatic actuated rocker gate, and a forum members has sent me a prototype Arduino board to control 8 gates.
However, there are some issues to sort and I just don't have the time to set this up for the mens shed.
They have also got WAAAY more of my time in the last 12 months than I originally intended to contribute and I will probably setup an automated system in my own shed first.

I just ran the cords for my rocker gates back to the machine it belonged to via pulleys etc to where the operator stands, remote control for about two dollars. I think that the total cost for all BG's is the killer for automation though the price must be coming down.

Chris
Unfortunately the price of automated dust collection does not seem to be decreasing. Firstly the number of systems aimed at the amateur is extremely limited. The only amateur system that I know of is the latest hobby Greengate which has plastic 100mm gates- completely useless.
In the commercial area there are many more available both pneumatic or electric but at astronomical prices. This a shame because my Old greengate with 150/125mm gates solves most of the problems with dust collection. You are never tempted to make just one cut without turning on the CV, the correct gate is always opened, and the delay on turning off keeps the ducting clear. It just works without me having to worry or think about it. Just concentrate on the job at hand. I dont know how you work but I often move from machine to machine.
Apart fron the CV the Greengate is one of the most important items in my workshop.
Ron

Ron, have a look at Corrimal Men's Shed automated BG system. They made and designed the whole thing and it is programmable to each machine for opening and closing delay etc and uses CV BG's. Corrimal Community Men's Shed Cyclone Dust Collection System - Automatic Cyclone DC System I can't tell you how much it all cost because I really don't know but it was a damned lot of money.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

I just ran the cords for my rocker gates back to the machine it belonged to via pulleys etc to where the operator stands, remote control for about two dollars. I think that the total cost for all BG's is the killer for automation though the price must be coming down.

Cords and pulleys might be OK for a couple of gates.
However, my shed setup has 12 gates, so with 2 cords per gate that would be 24 cords and dozens of pulleys I can't see cords and pulleys as being all that practical a solution and cost coming in at bit more than a few dollars.

While it's nice to have remote, I don't think that's the main problem. Assuming the DC is even on I'm finding the main problem is remembering to switch all the right gates. When the DC is on, the 1200 cfm ventilator is on, and I'm working between the BS and the sander, the last 3 machines are on VFDs so each VFD makes some fan noise which adds to the distraction. This afternoon while cutting the Al for the gates with the BS I forgot to switch the gates from sander back to BS and ended up with BS cabinet full of Al chips. Fortunately the amount of fine dust made is small and easily handled by the suck at the sander next door and the ventilator above.

Last week I was sanding some MDF on the belt sander and noticed that the dust was not being collected as efficiently as usual - after a quick loo around I realised that while I had opened the gates to the sander the gates to the TS were still open.

I have dismantled my prototype pneumatic gate and used the cylinder on another project but I will order another and reassemble it and take a few photos.
The pneumatic cylinder, cylinder valve controller, exhaust valves and quick fit pressure fittings cost ~ AU$30, unfortunately that is only half the problem.
Each machine needs its own current sensing switch so that when switched it sends a signal to a central logic controller to activate the right gates.
The central logic controller can be relatively inexpensive device such as an Arduino processor.
The cost of a logic controller and a half decent 12 or 24V PS to drive say a dozen cylinder valve controllers should be around $100.
The cost of a budget love current sensing switch is TBD.
As I mentioned before all this is being worked on by a forum member who has asked not to to be named.

For a variety of reasons if I decide to automate the gates in my shed I most likely won't be automating all 12 gates
Initially I was looking at controlling 8 gates and 5 machines so the cost would then be ~ $350 plus the cost of 5 current sensing switches.
I consider even this as expensive and my main reason for going back to it is as a curiosity rather than as solving a pressing problem.

By the time you get an automated gate installed it will stand you about $200 or near enough it does not matter which is about my cost to do it, multiply that by the number of BG's and it adds up really quick. Best of luck Bob, I think that megaphone is going to get a lot of use. I know the only two manual gates at CMS on the wood lathes used to drive the supervisors to distraction at times. I think I would put micro switches on them hooked up to BIG red and green lights indicating open and closed so they could easily be seen.

Bob
I completely agree with you about the problem of remembering to open & shut gates. Like you I often move between machines. See my comment to Chris 4 posts above.

Your system if you get it up and running will be very useful and an absolute bargain.

150mm Ecogate electrical blast gates for my Old Ecogate 8 station Controller are in the region of $450 each in Au. I bought several but also managed to obtain some second hand 125mm Ecogates which I have used in parallel with my existing 100mm gates and these are fitted to machines like the bandsaw. Really can't afford more than 2 x 150mm gates and these are dedicated to the major dust/chip producers (Planer Thicknesser and Compound Mitre Saw)

Ps Sorry for the name confusion. Commercial system with metal gates "Ecogate" New hobby system with plastic 100mm gates called "Greengate"
See https://www.ecogate.com & Grngate Automatic Dust Collection for details
Ron

Ron, did you look at the CMS solution in the link I provided? It was about $200 installed for each gate.

Hi Chris
Yes I had a look at the CMS system and it is quite impressive.
However they are using pneumatic gates which are incompatible with my proprietry controller. I really wouldn't want to start all over again for one or two last gates.
Fortunately with 2 x 150mm and 4 125/100 doubles most of my machines are connected. I really only need one more 150mm gate for my wood lathe which really hasn't been getting any use for the last few years.
Ron

Originally Posted by ronboult

Bob
I completely agree with you about the problem of remembering to open & shut gates. Like you I often move between machines. See my comment to Chris 4 posts above.
Your system if you get it up and running will be very useful and an absolute bargain.

Let's wait and see.
I won't say much more about my system because right now it's very low priority and it will be next year before I get back to it.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Best of luck Bob, I think that megaphone is going to get a lot of use.

True, but personally I'm not concerned about the dust levels, or the use of the megaphone, at the mens shed as I won't be there.

I wasn't around but the first 4 blast gates were installed last week.

But first . . . . . . . . . .
greenballs.jpg Redballs.jpg

Matt checking the gate installation
Bgates.jpg

They've left a bit of extra rope on until they decide what the best height will be for the handles.
ValveHandles.jpg