Thread: Power supply for 3-phase DE when using VFD

Originally Posted by markkr

Some advice please.

I'm planning to get either a CV1800 or CVMax (which to choose will be the subject of another thread) for a new shed build later this year. Three phase utility power will be available and used by table saw, planer and bandsaw at least.

Chris explained to me earlier this year that the VFD allows the US-built motor to run at its design (60Hz) speed, provides soft start and of course allows use of single phase (15A) supply.

So what does the sparky need to provide? A 15A socket only, or 3-phase for the DE and a separate supply for the VFD?

It depends if the motor can handle 415V 3phase (it may be a 240V 3 phase). If the former then either single or 3 phase will work and I would get the VFD hard wired as 3 phase. That means you don't have to worry about soft start and you might use a little less power?

I agree with Bob. Get a 3 phase VSD. Soft start and stop, speed control and overload protection. And the motor will be 220V 3 phase. The CVs are shipped with the standard USA motor.
Your sparky will need to supply 3 phase to the VFD. Make sure you let CV know that you have 3 phase so you get the right VFD.

Thanks Bob and NC. That's the information I was after.

Originally Posted by markkr

Some advice please.

I'm planning to get either a CV1800 or CVMax (which to choose will be the subject of another thread) for a new shed build later this year. Three phase utility power will be available and used by table saw, planer and bandsaw at least.

Chris explained to me earlier this year that the VFD allows the US-built motor to run at its design (60Hz) speed, provides soft start and of course allows use of single phase (15A) supply.

So what does the sparky need to provide? A 15A socket only, or 3-phase for the DE and a separate supply for the VFD?

Thanks

Mark

All ClearVue CV1800 and CVMAX models sold in Australia are supplied as standard with a 3 phase 2 pole motor 380/415 volt. We can supply either a single phase in 3 phase out VFD or 3 phase in 3 phase out VFD. The single phase in unit works from a 15amp supply. Either VFD needs to be wired in not run from a plug. The 3 phase in 3 phase out unit gives you soft start and speed control but does not need to alter the output voltage. The 3 phase in 3 phase out is slightly more expensive but still a most worthwhile investment.

Your sparky needs to supply power to the VFD according to which you choose and then 3 phase from the VFD to the motor of the cyclone.

Hope this helps.

Shedman

Thanks Shedman, it does indeed, since I now know what the sparky will need to quote on for the shed electrical supply.

Next decision - which CV ...

Mark

Originally Posted by BobL

It depends if the motor can handle 415V 3phase (it may be a 240V 3 phase). If the former then either single or 3 phase will work and I would get the VFD hard wired as 3 phase. That means you don't have to worry about soft start and you might use a little less power?

You lost me there Bob. The motor supplied can be wired for either voltage but using 240V requires a VFD. The advantages of the VFD in either voltage are...



Soft low current draw start, maximum current draw is about 16 amps for a few seconds.

Selectable running speed, recommendation is 60hz, but any speed is available. Low end speed would be limited by cooling of the motor and high end speed by the mechanical safety of the impeller/motor operation. In talking to BP he is reluctant to advise anything over 70hz due to the potential of a debris collision with the impeller. I have run mine at 70hz with no issue but use 60hz day to day. I routinely run it at 40hz to vent the shed over long periods.

The VFD can be programmed to accelerate the motor at the rate required though the default seems to work well and I have never changed it.

Motor braking can be utilised if deemed necessary but why you would bother?

The control panel can be remotely mounted from the VFD, usually at the most used machine. Multiple panels can be used via a factory add on board but it hasn't been done yet by CV in Oz. I have one board but it is no problem to source more. I am sure Stephen has one as well.

10 different operating profiles are available if needed

If any problems are encountered the factory will supply direct back up to the client by email or phone from the manufacturing plant in China. I have sent them an email and five minutes later they were on the phone! the service is astounding.




The voltage and phase input needs specifying so the correct VFD can be supplied. Me, I would recommend a VFD for either voltage as it makes for a flexible operation. if you run without the VFD on 415V you are stuck with a hard start and 50hz but the VFD can be added later if need be.

The speed changing is a rotary knob so no button pushing as on some other VFD's.

Originally Posted by markkr

Some advice please.

I'm planning to get either a CV1800 or CVMax (which to choose will be the subject of another thread) for a new shed build later this year. Three phase utility power will be available and used by table saw, planer and bandsaw at least.

Chris explained to me earlier this year that the VFD allows the US-built motor to run at its design (60Hz) speed, provides soft start and of course allows use of single phase (15A) supply.

So what does the sparky need to provide? A 15A socket only, or 3-phase for the DE and a separate supply for the VFD?

Thanks

Mark

Is this a LEESON motor?

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

You lost me there Bob.

3 phase wiring and connections are usually much higher current rated than 240 single phase connection. If he has 3 phase to the shed and he wires his VFD and then impeller motor via this route, the breakers will almost certainly be able to handle high start up currents so no need to worry about soft start.
Motors running at higher V are a little more efficient so running at 415V should use less power.

You propose using a VFD and no soft start? Seems contradictory to me. Why would hard wiring it in do away with the worry of soft start? Indeed what is the worry about soft start?

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

You propose using a VFD and no soft start? Seems contradictory to me. Why would hard wiring it in do away with the worry of soft start? Indeed what is the worry about soft start?

There's no worry at all - it's just not necessary if the shed has a 3 phase supply as it should provide enough current to cope with a regular start.

Even when using a VSD on a 240V single phase there are times when a soft start is not needed. eg on my 1HP DP, the start up currents are low and I don't usually want to wait for it to wind up to full speed. I do use a short soft start on my 1HP lathes but neither of them need it because of start up currents.

We will have to agree to disagree as in my experience anyone who uses soft start would not be without it and I have supplied a lot of VFD's.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

We will have to agree to disagree as in my experience anyone who uses soft start would not be without it and I have supplied a lot of VFD's.

I'm not against soft starting if there is a reason for it (like I say I use it on my lathes) and I understand the need to minimize start up currents because because of a reduced electrical circuit capacity.
However, if that capacity can be met because the circuits are up for it then what other reason does a DC need soft start for? If anything I would think it would be useful for it to get up to full speed as quickly as possible.

I can understand that if an electrical motor is turned on and off many times a day (and I mean an on-off frequency much greater than a regular DC) and fast start up is not required then soft start just eases general wear and tear. But lets not forget the million of 3 phase motors and machines they are attached to that still function perfectly well many decades without using a VFD.

Mark,

I installed a CV 1800 late last year.

Aussie CV's are supplied with a Teco motor last time I looked.

I opted for a 15 Amp single phase input with a VFD and a 3 phase output to the Teco motor because it was cheaper to have a 15 Amp, 240 V circuit and a VFD installed than to have 3 phase power hooked up to my shed ... a lot cheaper! My sparky put in a 15 Amp circuit to a GPO. There is a three pin plug connecting the VFD to the 15 Amp power supply.

My shed is at the very back of the property, and the quote for 3 phase power made my eyes water. However, if you have a welder or similar in your future plans you might like to consider spending the loot to install 3 phase power.

So, in my case simple economics dictated a 15 Amp circuit and a VFD, because I could see no future need for 3 phase power.

I do love my Clear Vue ... it works brilliantly.

Originally Posted by John Samuel

I opted for a 15 Amp single phase input with a VFD and a 3 phase output to the Teco motor because it was cheaper to have a 15 Amp, 240 V circuit and a VFD installed than to have 3 phase power hooked up to my shed ... a lot cheaper! My sparky put in a 15 Amp circuit to a GPO. There is a three pin plug connecting the VFD to the 15 Amp power supply. .

John, check out his original post.

Originally Posted by markkr

I'm planning to get either a CV1800 or CVMax (which to choose will be the subject of another thread) for a new shed build later this year. Three phase utility power will be available and used by table saw, planer and bandsaw at least. . . . .