Thread: Any practical use for a 1hp blower?

Enormous cost is the cost in materials and time to rebuild the system every time I make a major alteration to it. Remember the part of my post referring to rearranging furniture?

Then there is the "why"? I don't think a solid system running across my 30x60 shop would be an improvement to short runs I now have with three collectors.

While six inch pipe would be preferable, I, like a majority of hobbyists, won't be cutting hole in my long bed jointer, table saw or other pieces of equipment to enlarge the ports from their current four inch size. If running six inch to units and bottle necking them to four could be shown to, significantly, improve collection, I'd look into that. Of course, in the meanwhile and as you suggest, staying with quality 4" with relatively smooth inner walls is a must.

I realize a cyclone knocks down performance, but years of first hand experience not having one, then having one tells me not having one does too. Take my little shop vac, for example. Without a cyclone, I had to stop every five minutes to clean the filter. With it, I could get twenty or more minutes of run time picking up fines. The vac efficiency went up enough I was able to down size my vac on many operations. It is, of course, the same for my collectors - the quicker the filters clog the quicker their efficiency drops.

Then there is the matter of dealing with impeller damage, when hard objects pass through them, or the matter of damage to the objects themselves.


For me, the cons of not having a cyclone are far outweighed by the pros of having one, to include the matter of dealing with losses of shop environment conditioning.

Originally Posted by BobL

Im not sure what you consider enormous cost but my 6" system fixed PVC cost about $500 for ducting and junctions.

I spent a few years working with a largely 4" flex ducting system and DC inside my shop and then moved my DC outside and went to a fixed 4" system. Given what I now know about DC leakage ad flow reduction in flexy pipe, I would never go back to an indoor flex system. Some flexy pipe is so restrictive that 12 ft is all that is needed to reduce flows by ~ 50%. My testing shows that cyclones on DCs also impact flow but it won't be noticeable on a 4" ducting system which then becomes the flow limiting factor.

When I enlarged my shop and went to a full 6" system and even though I have serious ventilation available I rarely need to use it because the 6" system is so effective. Large radius bends, Y's and gates also have little impact on a 6" systems.

A few years back I measured more than 2 dozen working DCs with particle counters in DIYer sheds and found they nearly leak fine invisible dust, even some brand new DCs leak. The bag housings leak, the filter and collection bags bags leak. The older the DCs are the more they leaked. The most common place is around seals but often its because they towed around inside a shop where they contact other machinery or things crash into them. The only way to really tell if they are leaking is with a particle detector.

I realise that locating the DC outside doesn't work for folks with cold climates but here in Oz most of us try to get DCs outside the shed if we can. In my dust monitoring of DIY sheds, locating the DC outside the shed is the single best thing a DIYer can do for their dust control.

Originally Posted by dejure

Enormous cost is the cost in materials and time to rebuild the system every time I make a major alteration to it. Remember the part of my post referring to rearranging furniture?

Time I can understand, but once set up there's actually little cost in reorganising the shop because the joints are just gaffer taped and I end up reusing almost all of the pieces I take out.
In fact I recommend when folks install a 6" system in a large shed, adding Y's every 6 ft or so and blocking then up if they are not used - then you are almost always near a usable junction.

Then there is the "why"? I don't think a solid system running across my 30 x 60 shop would be an improvement to short runs I now have.

If it was located the middle of a longer wall of your shed a 6" system on a 3HP DC would accomodate your size shop.

While six inch pipe would be preferable, I, like a majority of hobbyists, won't be cutting hole in my long bed jointer, table saw or other pieces of equipment to enlarge the ports from their current four inch size.

It only hurts the first time you do it .
Some machines have dust ports mounted on panels, plates or covers which can be replaced so there's no cutting.
The problem with many machines is not so much the enlarging of the dust port as the addition of air inlets to allow the machines to breathe so the increased flow can carry the dust away. Manufacturers are mostly hopeless in this regard.
Some of machines don't need cutting into at all e.g. Lathes, sanders and SCMS, so 6" ducting is worth doing it for these machines alone.

If running six inch to units and bottle necking them to four could be shown to, significantly, improve collection, I'd look into that.

I used to think that running 6" to a 4" machine was a bit of a waste of time but some recent tests I have done suggest otherwise. I have not posted these tests yet as I want to repeat them to check the results. If someone is installing a new system I recommend 6" ducting even if they don't want to open up dust ports on machinery - they can always do that later.

Take my little vac, for example. Without a cyclone, I had to stop every five minutes to clean the filter. With it, I could get twenty or more minutes of run time picking up fines. Then there is the matter of dealing with impeller damage when hard objects pass through them.

By saying "DCs" I did not mean Vacs which can really benefit from these small cyclones.

Small cyclone typically rob about about 4" of WC vacuum from dust collection systems. On a Vac with 25-30" of WC, 4" is not noticeable, but since conventional DCs only generate about 8-10" of WC then adding a cyclone really makes a difference. This is why the BP cyclone uses a 4HP 15" impeller and his cyclone only loses 2.25" of WC.

Just returning to the original post, it seems the blower could be adapted for a forge if you are in to metalworking/ blacksmithing.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Just returning to the original post, it seems the blower could be adapted for a forge if you are in to metalworking/ blacksmithing.

I've tried using a 1HP DC impeller on a small charcoal forge I built for my nephew and it produced way too much air. About 70 CFM (e.g. an old vacuum cleaner) is all that is needed for a two person forge and even then you'd need to spill a fair bit of that air.

I even tried making a suitable blower using a 1/3rd HP motor and fan I got from Eskimo but it put out about the same amount of air as a 1HP DC blower (albeit at a lower pressure)
Details here New Blower for gas powered forge

While it might surprise you, I noted the leaks too (insert knee slap). That is why I posted, to another forum link, about using the foam used between campers and pickup beds. The leaks you see are no longer there. After the machine ran a while, it was obvious it needed the same tweeking my big collectors got.



You haven’t wandered my 30 x 60 shop. If you did, you’d know why I feel I’m qualified to say what would be a pain to accomplish and what wouldn’t. For an incomplete example, consider that my walls and floors are lined with:


- cabinets for carving equipment, sanding equipment, saws, all manner of layout tools, drilling equipment and accessories, grinding and polishing equipment, chisels, mallets and hammers, . . .

- Granite routers and bits, blades and polishing supplies and accessories.

- An electronics section with wire, plugs, solder, tape, soldering stations and irons

- Glass work tools and supplies (e.g., solder, flux, lead came, stretchers and so on)

- An electroplating and forming station (with its own exhaust)

- Plexi/Lexon tools.

- Fastening bins and so on

- A vast array of glues and solvents.

- The usual cabinet, miter and band saw, drill press, carving machine (4'x6' bed), over-arm pin router, planer, long bed jointer, lathes, Router Crafter, . . . .



Add to the complications those “might” pose, when revamping my entire system, add:

- From the ceiling is suspended air and electric spools, fourteen lights, eye and safety glass storage, pencils and pens, push shoe racks, band saw blade storage, and air fed mask system, and so on.

- All my outlets are a little above waist height.

- I would have to go back to the machine I was running and close its gate, then open the one on the machine I’m going to use, which means a not insignificant expense in either time or money for 6" gates.

- I rearranged “furniture” when I upgraded from one jointer to an eight inch long bed, or added the 89" edge sander, or added the second lathe, or added the electroforming and plating station, or picked up my old metal nail bins and storage drawers, added the third collector and, like many, I’ll continue to improve the work flow arrangement of my tools and equipment.

- Several of the replacement pipe runs, including long sweeps, would be only a few feet, but for the long sweeps, which would extend them and even require some doubling back (e.g., edge and drum sander). For those, flex is the only common sense solution, though I have mulled the idea of upgrading to larger hose with reducers, if I can see proof it would be a worthwhile expense (I’ve been “rodeoing” since around 74).

- As currently set up, both my large collectors are positioned with the dust ports, and on the one, gates accessible from the front. A solid system of short pipes would require turning them around. Fortunately, I extended all the switches off power cables and with rare earth magnets so I can position them on the equipment I’m using or using most, so the switches are accessible regardless which way they are turned.

Of course, I could go on, but switching the entire system over to hard pipe, whether plastic or metal, is not the simple task your posts suggests. For me, there would have been more than one “first time.”

Still, as indicated and as you suggest, I have considered upgrading some of the lines here and there. That is why I already converted the input to the one cyclone to a six inch.


In some instances, there are what might be better solutions, before getting to the piping:

- For my band saw, an additional upper, adjustable hose, to collect what the pitiful lower draw system cannot [through the tiny throat plate], solves a multitude of problems a bigger hose could not. Too, adding a snap on heated and bent 6" pipe to control air draw under the table helped greatly.

- For my sanding station, I added the top, sides and back (a big piece of nylon draped over adjustable posts) made for an apples-to-oranges kind of comparison (and sad laughter at what many companies call a sanding station).

- For my lathe, an adjustable hood made of oval shaped, 6" pipe with the ends capped and the front cut out.

- For my drum-disk sander, and cover like the one on the underside of the bandsaw allowed me to better control air flow.

- For the drum-disk sander, a simple vinyl flap at the bottom of the drum forced it to draw from where the dust went down, past the table (before, there was a large gap at the back, wasting collector effort.

- For the 4'x6' carver, running over-arm, 4" (therefore, flexible, compared to six or eight inch) collection leaves very little at the end of a day. Even the big, more complex machines I’ve seen seem less efficient on that matter.

- Finally, I should note that the one four bag collector actually has two canisters and has notably better pull than the one micron bag beast. thanks to the increased draw area.




On another note, I doubt I’d be happy with the results of going to a single 3 horse with six inch pipe for a shop my size. Everything suggests I’d want to go to eight inch and start at five to seven horses, then plan on running a second vent, when working a piece of equipment near the collector.

Just for reference, piping layout and sizing was part of the package with my first big cyclone purchase, and I have to say I trust the company’s engineers a bit more than I do myself or someone unfamiliar

It is probable this would be less a problem for me than you and many others from an electrical consumption stance, since I live near two dams [on the Columbia] and there are others within a hour or so drive. Your monthly electric bill would power my house and shop for at least a couple months (a really high bill, when heating and running my shop and house in the dead of winter is, around $200.00, but it, normally runs about $120.00.

Of course, we could then jump to the argument (rabbit trail) I ALWAYS get from electricians who try to claim I only need a hundred amp service for my shop (add up two guys and/or gals using collectors and equipment, an HVAC, lighting, ongoing plating, . . . . ).


As to moving the collectors to “a longer wall,” that would be a step backward for my shop. Currently, one is at a corner, where all the sanding equipment and band saw is located. The other is center on the short (30') wall, where it tends the planer, saw, jointer, . . . . [Both do floor duty and I rarely fire up the shop vac, other than for collection off hand sanders.]

Finally, my shop is five feet off the property line in back and on one end, so there will not be any exterior shed. However, as elsewhere mentioned, I am looking at moving one collector out to one of the bays (just on the other side of the wall where it now sits) and raising it so the piping does not have to go up and down as much. That is, its input would be closer to the elevation of the cyclone input, which would remain inside the shop, where it could be monitored (absent an electronic monitor (and its expense)).

If moved out of the main shop section, it would be boxed and insulated for return air.


Meanwhile, your effort to obtain actual results of the differences between running six and four inch lines, then share them, are appreciated. If you can include run lengths, it would help a lot of us who do have several VERY short runs (I suspect you’ll end up with results suggesting we’d do well to consider altering hose or pipe size, as you suggest) even in those instances. Just the twelve foot run to my one cyclone helped.



[QUOTE=BobL;2059693]Time I can understand, but once set up there's actually little cost in reorganising the shop because the joints are just gaffer taped and I end up reusing almost all of the pieces I take out. . . .

Originally Posted by dejure

It is probable this would be less a problem for me than you and many others from an electrical consumption stance, since I live near two dams [on the Columbia] and there are others within a hour or so drive. Your monthly electric bill would power my house and shop for at least a couple months (a really high bill, when heating and running my shop and house in the dead of winter is, around $200.00, but it, normally runs about $120.00.

Electric power costs us around US$260 a month in summer (5 air conditioners - not all on at the same time), and US$150 in winter. We just had a price rise so I am expecting a serious hike in the next billing period. Were also paying around US$30 a month for gas heated water.

I have less than 5ft between my shed and the back fence and I managed to build a serious noise reducing enclosure for my DC in that space. The reason for the noise reduction was my rear neighbour also has his pool just over the fence. I managed to reduce the noise coming from the enclosure on the fence line to less than the noise from the neighbours pool pump which runs at all hours of the day and night.

The roof, walls and doors consists of pine frames with Colorbond outer metal sheet, 32 mm thick melamine, 90 mm of mattress foam.
The 3 doors are 5" thick and weigh around 100 lbs each.
The doors are on easily removed hinges as the needed to be removed to get the DC inside.

Final.jpg

Here and most places in cities in the U.S. you have set backs. That is, you can only build within so many feet of the property line. As I said, my 30'x60' shop is five feet off the property line behind it. If I built an exterior shed, I'd be ordered to tear it down.

Your electric doesn't seem too unreasonable, since it's not horribly much more than mine for the shop and the house. If I were on our west coast, which I was some years ago, the same usage would have ran me about five hundred a month.

Originally Posted by BobL

I have less than 5ft between my shed and the back fence and I managed to build a serious noise reducing enclosure for my DC in that space. The reason for the noise reduction was my rear neighbour also has his pool just over the fence. I managed to reduce the noise coming from the enclosure on the fence line to less than the noise from the neighbours pool pump which runs at all hours of the day and night.

SDC18581.JPGSDC18580.JPGSDC17871.jpgSDC18668.JPGShop-10.JPGSDC17225.JPG_Cyclone & 3-Horse-1.JPGSDC18509.JPGSDC17971.JPG

Some of what is hanging off my ceiling:

https://www.instructables.com/id/ADJ...GLASS-STORAGE/

Dealing with bag to collector leaks:

https://www.instructables.com/id/Dus...r-Improvement/

Nowhere did I imply Bob is less than an expert, but I did say and stand by that I'm more knowledgeable about my shop and its and my needs than he or anyone else. Some of his recommendations are valuable. I was aware of them, from other sources, including Pentz, for several years. Too, I applied them to my former system, along with other recommendations from the engineers of the company I purchased my system from.

It was mentioned Bill Pentz is also an expert. He sells his cyclones. Of course, you can find cyclone systems that make the ones any of us would use look like toys being used in factories all over the world. They were put in place in response to recommendations of other experts. So there just may be some merit in considering the possibility they have value.

Nice workshop. Thanks for the pictures.
I’ve found that most discussions on workshop dust collection seems to parrot information on Bill’s site. The Mens shed I belong to put a $45000 system in based on industrial extraction experts design and it seems to break a lot of the so called “ rules” but it works great. I suppose if you put dust measuring devices in every nook and cranny you would get some higher then wanted readings but i’m sure this would most likely be the case in any large scale industrial wood work shop.
As for my humble system, it’s just a fully modified 2hp system (that I did a thread on) and with the two additional vac. systems I also have in place (to connect to my hand held gear), i’m happy with what I have and how it performs.

The world of dust collection approaches have come a long ways from the old days. The Net wasn't around and good information wasn't readily found back in the seventies. Of course, I was fifty years younger and well into dealing with the expenses of raising a family, so couldn't have afforded a lot of what I'd have wanted to do anyway. I, like a lot of others, got by with a vacuum and holding my breath (before I took another big gulp of dust laden air).