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  1. #1
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    Default Thien Cyclone Separator - do you use one?

    Hi Guys,

    Been watching lots of Youtube videos lately and reading some old posts in the DE forum around Thien Cyclone separators.

    They look easy enough to build , but wondering if anyone is actually using one at the moment?

    I know using a chip separator can rob a lot of CFM from a system, but curious to know if anyone has measured the actual airflow differences between using one and not say for a system using a 6" run with a 3HP dusty.

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  3. #2
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    Yep, built a small one about 2 years ago. Have it hooked to my hand tools before the Supervac. Works a treat

    image.jpg

    A larger one is on the to-do list as the small one fills too quickly - needs a bigger dust/chip reservoir.
    Last edited by Lappa; 13th February 2016 at 07:37 PM. Reason: Added photo

  4. #3
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    I built one using a plastic garbage bin, works fantastic
    The person who never made a mistake never made anything

    Cheers
    Ray

  5. #4
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    Bill Pentz has measured the pressure loss from, as he puts it "trash can separators" and according to Bill they drop about 4.5" of pressure.
    On a 3HP DC with 6" ducting that turns 1250 CFM into about 900 CFM which is consistent with my measurements where I found about a 25% loss of flow.
    On 4' ducting systems than turns 400 cfm into 300 cfm before taking any ducting, transitions or machinery into account.

  6. #5
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    I have one on top of a blue plastic 44 gallon drum, connected to my tablesaw/bandsaw/router table/ thicknesser via a single plug in 4" hose. Works very well, never have to empty the plastic bag on my 2hp dust collector, barely anything in it. Take the lid off and look inside and you can see how the swirls have deposited the dust in the drum.
    regards,

    Dengy

  7. #6
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    Thanks for the replies guys - they do look very effective at separating the big stuff from the fines.

    BobL .... your reply was just what i was hoping to see, with some data behind it all.

    I did read the Bill Pentz site, though thought he may have been referring to the below style of separator lids which provide no to little "Cyclone" type effect.

    I was hopeful that the Thien Top hat style separator (which is kind of like a mini cyclone) might be a "happy middle ground" between this style of separator and a ClearVue Cyclone.

    Something more like this type of design ..... (For those interested in the link - 6" Inlet/Outlet Separator How to with Video, Pics and Text)

    I think if you made something similar to the below, you may get better results by having it atleast 9" -12" high (instead of 6") to allow the dust particles to fall out of the incoming air flow and down through the baffle.



    Perhaps i will just stick with my current standard 3HP twin bag dusty for a little while longer yet - but as time permits may look further into something like this.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenJoys View Post
    Thanks for the replies guys - they do look very effective at separating the big stuff from the fines.

    BobL .... your reply was just what i was hoping to see, with some data behind it all.

    I did read the Bill Pentz site, though thought he may have been referring to the below style of separator lids which provide no to little "Cyclone" type effect.

    I was hopeful that the Thien Top hat style separator (which is kind of like a mini cyclone) might be a "happy middle ground" between this style of separator and a ClearVue Cyclone.
    All trash can separators and most separators cyclonic action according to BLL generates about 4.5" of back pressure which seriously affects air flow accordingly.
    The ClearVue has been specifically designed to reduce that back pressure but even so still generates 2.25" of back pressure which is why the Clearvue uses such a big motor and impeller so the 2.25" pressure hit is not as significant..
    The other advantage of the better class of cyclone like a Cleavue is that in can if placed or vented outside be used without any filter but you cannot usually do that with other cyclones and separators.

    When you only have 3HP and a 12 or 13" impeller then any type of separator will serious impact flow.
    IN comparison to that, a clean twin filter bag arrangement generates about 0.5" of flow and a dirty filter can generate as much as 6" of back pressure.

    The down side is of course the need to keep the bags clean.
    If the bags are not kept clean the bags will eventually block up and slow the flow down to less than that caused by a separator.
    OTOH i a separator is used the flow is ALWAYS less than it could be resulting in less fine dust capture at source which leaves more fine dust dust in the shed.
    Most folks don't see the dust because it is largely invisible.

    The problem with trash can separators attached to standard DCs.is that folks who use them look into the filter bags and see a cup of fine dust and think, "that's ok the dust collection bag does not need emptying".
    Sure the bag might not need emptying but the filter can still be clogged enough to impact flow as it only takes about a 1/4 of cup of fine dust to clog the filters
    To keep this under control and maximise flow the filter bags should be cleaned every time the trash can is emptied.
    If that is the case then you might as well not use the separator to begin with.

    If you use a separator, when you empty your separator, shake and beat the filters vigorously for at least 2 mutes and see how much dust falls into you collection bags. If you see less than 1/8 cup from one filter bag then leave the dust in the collection bag (rte flowing air will eventually fluff it up into the filters filters) alone do this check agin after another trash can emptyings and then see how much dust is in the filters. If there is still less than 1/8 cup then keep repeating this until you see the 1/8 cup etc. This will give you some idea of how often to clean the filters. The problem with this is that the amount of fine duct generation is activity and wood specific. If you are just sanding the filters will almost certainly be clogged well before the separator is full even one time.

    On a regular DC the collection bags should never be let get full.
    Even when making a lot of shavings the bags should be emptied and filters cleaned after they are no more than 2/3rd full and preferably when they are no more than half full

    Folks think they can tell their flow is OK by putting there hand in front of a duct but this is far from any sort of accurate way of measuring air flow.

  9. #8
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    I wish the Bill Pentz website was redesigned to make it easier to navigate and find the relevant information - someone needs to get it out of the 1990's!!!

    It would also be great if the information on the BP website was regularly updated to provide comparative information against current alternative methods. I can appreciate that BP has no obligation to do so, but many people are hanging their hat on information that the website states was collated from testing and measurements done back in 2006. I am definitely not saying that the current information provided is incorrect, but if I was basing my assumptions on anything using data that was 10yrs old then my assumptions may not be the most accurate in the current day's climate.

    No one doubts that the BP cyclone is most probably still the best solution out there, but the gap between designs may be closer than originally tested meaning that people may then be able to consider alternatives if willing to make compromises (small or large). So i am saying it would be great if the website showed a clear comparison between the BP design and the closest alternatives of the current day so that people could make their own educated decision based on their own needs and their own level of risk.

    I know 1000CFM is the magic number we should be aiming for, but the BP site gives people 3 air quality options to consider by stating "800 CFM to meet minimum OSHA standard, 900 CFM to meet the five times tougher ACGIH standards, 1000 CFM to meet EPA/medical recommended standard (Dust Collection Research - Cyclone & DC Testing). If people are willing to make a compromise - then they may be happy to aim for a middle ground solution (i.e. 900CFM ACGIH standard) which may then bring other designs into consideration, that won't cost them a small fortune for a hobby which most can only dedicate 1 day a week of time too.

    A Ferrari is a sweet machine, but i'm not going to buy one to drive once a week to pick up the Sunday paper haha

    Just my 2cents ....

  10. #9
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    Unfortunately there have not been any major advances in wood dust extraction technologies in the last 10 years or so. an neither are there likely to be.
    Impeller technology is quite a mature one and any further improvements are likely to be in the order of a few %.
    To meet increasingly stringent OHS specifications large workshops have usually moved to increasingly larger and more powerful systems to avoid the inefficiencies of old DC designs.
    This means 3phase power and very large ducting which is completely impractical for most DIY operators.

    You need to be aware that "800 CFM to meet minimum OSHA standard, 900 CFM to meet the five times tougher ACGIH standards, 1000 CFM to meet EPA/medical recommended standard" applies to "At the source".
    A DC my well be able to draw those flow rates but if the ducting is not set up correctly and the machine inlets are throttled then even 1000 CFM by the DC could well drop to half that value at the source.
    The reality is that a DC that can generate a real 1600 CFM may be needed to get 800 CFM at the source on some machines.



  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenJoys View Post
    I wish the Bill Pentz website was redesigned to make it easier to navigate and find the relevant information - someone needs to get it out of the 1990's!!!
    He assured me during one conversation some years ago that a new site was on the way but it has never happened which is a pity.
    CHRIS

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    He assured me during one conversation some years ago that a new site was on the way but it has never happened which is a pity.
    That's also what BP told me when I had a series of email communications with him in 2011/12.
    He said he was in the process of learning how to use DreamWeaver and had prepared a number of revised pages but I haven't heard from him since then.

    Woodworkers may not be aware that what BP has published on his site is just a sample of the things he has done and DCs he has tested.
    Some of this is also because what he can publish is limited for legal reasons.
    The task BP faces of condensing and reorganizing the existing info, plus all the extra info he has collected since he wrote those pages is probably just too daunting.
    It's also why I haven't consolidated my testing into a single set of web pages

  13. #12
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    It is a shame if it is not done, because as you have mentioned there is lots of information there which is being buried by ineffective menu structures and old school web page design. Further to this, most people view online content with mobile devices (phones and tablets), which makes it even harder to find what you are looking for on a site not optimised for said devices. I think at the very least, the inclusion of a decent search function would go a long way to making it easier for folks to find the information they are searching for!

    For those playing at home ..... I was only able to find a single reference on the BP website specifically for the word "Thien" - Dust Collection Research - Dust Collector Cartridge Conversion . On this page it mentions using the Thien baffle to help protect your cartridge filters, as a better alternative to the old trashcan separator designs.

  14. #13
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    Do keep in mind Mr. Pentz is not a young man and it is quite possible that health or family matters prevent an update from being carried out.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodenJoys View Post
    It is a shame if it is not done, because as you have mentioned there is lots of information there which is being buried by ineffective menu structures and old school web page design. Further to this, most people view online content with mobile devices (phones and tablets), which makes it even harder to find what you are looking for on a site not optimised for said devices. I think at the very least, the inclusion of a decent search function would go a long way to making it easier for folks to find the information they are searching for!.
    I agree the material is very hard to read even on a big screen.

    I found searching with Google and including the search term "site:billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/" is as good as using a dedicated search function.

    For those playing at home ..... I was only able to find a single reference on the BP website specifically for the word "Thien" - Dust Collection Research - Dust Collector Cartridge Conversion . On this page it mentions using the Thien baffle to help protect your cartridge filters, as a better alternative to the old trashcan separator designs.
    I agree a Thein will be better for filter protection than a sinmple in/out trash can separator but just like trash can separators, and to some extent or other all cyclones, the filtration takes place at the expensive of reduced flow rates so ~25% less air and less fine dust is collected right from the start. Thien filtration is also still far from efficient and lets too much fine dust through which is why cyclones are preferable otherwise why would anyone bother using a cyclone? But like I said earlier in this thread the BP design still calls for a 4HP motor and 15" impeller.

  16. #15
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    I actually made one last weekend - however not been able to use it in anger yet due to lack of hose - but intend to do so this weekend.

    From initial tests it seems to work well . . . made from:

    55 litre metal bin from bunnings
    2 x pieces of 18mm MDF
    2 x pieces of 6mm MDF
    1 x 50mm PVC pipe
    1 x 90 deg
    1 x PVC pipe connector
    4 x 150mm bolts

    If interested I can post some pics . . . very easy to produce with bandsaw (just to get the lid near circular), table saw (use to make the lids perfectly circular) and router (needed to make the holes in the lid to the exact 60.5mm to push the pipe through - yes I was being somewhat anally retentive to ensure there was zero air gaps for possibilities of loss of suction! (I may of used the 3D printer to print a router template to ensure 60.5mm holes . . .)


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