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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyturns View Post
    .....Yes, MS environments are a low priority low risk for Workplace H&S inspectors who have more than enough on their plate with traditional "workplaces" non-compliance. However don't be complacent as Workplace H&S inspectors do have the power and authority to enter an "undertaking's" premises to conduct inspections, investigations etc and certainly can prosecute breaches of the regulations, and must do so in the event of a death, serious injury etc. The Townsville Gymnastics investigation and prosecution of the committee proves that.

    This is getting complicated. Do we have a High Court judge as a Forumite?

    In the "ownership structure" that BobL has described for his Mens' Shed where the mens shed is a "subsidiary" of the senior citizens club and both are effectively "subsidiaries" of the Council, where does ulimate legal responsibility lie? Is it:
    • the mens shed Committee,
    • the senior citizens club Committee, or
    • the Local Government Council?


    And with such fuzzy lines of responsibility, with many responsible not knowing their responsibilities, I doubt we shall reach a conclusion!


    Cheers

    Graeme

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  3. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraemeCook View Post
    This is getting complicated. Do we have a High Court judge as a Forumite?
    We have a former WA court judge who was the president of the SCC and a social member of the mens shed. His hobbies included continuing to study case law in great detail and we handed this one to him and his judgement was the SSC employed no one and gave us a dozen case law examples to back up his claims. Even if he has ruled the other way I was not going to do anything about it. If it takes this sort of high handed action to generate a few basic OHS actions in a small time operation like a mens shed I didn't want to be part of it.

  4. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Not really.
    I feel for you.
    5 weeks ago I managed to throw my shoulder out. It's on the mend now, but for the first 3 weeks sleep was impossible, I survived on strong pain killers (4000 to 5000 mg per day), ice packs, with any "sleep" being achieved slumped in a chair.

    Best wishes mate
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  5. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    I feel for you.
    5 weeks ago I managed to throw my shoulder out. It's on the mend now, but for the first 3 weeks sleep was impossible, I survived on strong pain killers (4000 to 5000 mg per day), ice packs, with any "sleep" being achieved slumped in a chair.

    Best wishes mate
    Cheers Ian, how did you do the shoulder? I had bursitis in both shoulders about 10 years ago and remember finding sleeping difficult.

    I reckon I did my knee by kicking a tennis ball around the park for the dogs. Normally I use a "chukka" to throw the tennis ball around or I kick a 3/4 flat soccer ball around (it's 3/4 flat so the dogs can pick up the ball). 3 weeks ago I only had a tennis ball and as it was cold (well . . . . cool and wet) and early morning I kept my hands in my pockets and kicked the tennis ball around. Even wearing steel capped boots kicking a small ball on wet grass doesn't send it very far so I was really giving it a boot - result - bung knee. As far as SWMBO is concerned I'm blaming the house work as SWMBO is MIA due to her ribs but I'm not getting much traction with that one.

  6. #305
    Mobyturns's Avatar
    Mobyturns is offline In An Instant Your Life Can Change Forever
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    We have a former WA court judge who was the president of the SCC and a social member of the mens shed. His hobbies included continuing to study case law in great detail and we handed this one to him and his judgement was the SSC employed no one and gave us a dozen case law examples to back up his claims. Even if he has ruled the other way I was not going to do anything about it. If it takes this sort of high handed action to generate a few basic OHS actions in a small time operation like a mens shed I didn't want to be part of it.
    Yes, I have seen similar opinions. My understanding is that its not the worker / employee / employment "test" that captures incorporated & unincorporated associations, & clubs BUT the ownership and / or being responsible for the control of plant, buildings and electrical installations "test" which has a few case law precedents.

    One of the fellows I was working in collaboration with has an extensive legal background (and wishes to maintain confidences) and has a similar opinion to me and like me he realizes that humans do strange and unexplainable things at times so we do not wish to place our faith in the interpretations of the courts. Much to late to address IF you find out your legal opinions about not being captured by the regulations are flawed / erroneous. Be prudent and comply as it demonstrates a responsible and proactive duty to the health and welfare of members.

    I attended the Townsville City Council's one day risk mitigation seminar for sporting clubs / associations back in 2005 or 2006 to assist office bearers to understand and meet their obligations / duties wrt to minimizing public liability claims and compliance with aspects of the workplace safety legislation. The Council's legal officer and a number of legal academics from James Cook University and local law firms plus representatives (workcover inspectors) from the Dept of Justice gave presentations on many topics citing various case law scenarios.

    It beggars belief what holds up in a civil damages case - damages awarded for injuries even after the claimant ( or claimant's guardian ) wilfully ignored instructions / directions and warnings about a hazard and the risk of injury. The crucial failing in the defences case - they had prior knowledge of the hazard and failed in their duty to "protect" the public from the hazard. Most claims never reach the courts and are settled to mitigate the defences costs.

    The seminar highlighted that members generally have no recourse for damages under public liability policies for injuries (self inflicted or caused by the actions of another member or a flaw in machinery etc) sustained while participating in the associations events, workshops etc and few if any associations / clubs hold "member to member" policies in Mens Shed style workshops as they are to expensive. Most sporting clubs hold some form of injury cover.

    There were quite a few concerned office bearers at the end of the day with a few saying "that's it I'm quitting!"
    Mobyturns

    In An Instant Your Life CanChange Forever

  7. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Cheers Ian, how did you do the shoulder?
    believe it or not, the root cause was wood working.

    Back at the beginning of April I did a two day course with a local carver.
    A few weeks later I was experiencing pain in my right thumb, which was diagnosed as an over use injury associated with the carving and the amount of driving I do each day. The thumb was immobilized in a brace and I continued driving including two 14 hour trips in the same week. I woke with an excruciating pain in the right shoulder about 6 hours after getting back from the second trip. After spending a few hours on a morphine drip in casualty, the medics determined that I wasn't experiencing a heart attack or referred pain from elsewhere in the body, but a muscle spasm from the angle I needed to hold my shoulder while driving with the thumb brace on.

    It was a week and bit before the swelling had reduced enough to commence treatment.
    Five weeks later I have about 65% of the original movement back, and can sleep without drugs or discomfort. The first three weeks were no fun at all. I was living on 4000 mg of acetaminopen per day. Which was a more effective pain relief than the synthetic opiate I was also prescribed.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  8. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    . . . . .the medics determined that I wasn't experiencing a heart attack or referred pain from elsewhere in the body, but a muscle spasm from the angle I needed to hold my shoulder while driving with the thumb brace on.
    It's interesting to see all these connectivities.I've now got a sore ankle on my left leg because of the way I'm holding my right leg straight while walking because of the painful right knee.

  9. #308
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    Hi Bob,
    I’m a high school Furnishings teacher and I battled this everyday, until I made the choice that the school buys every student a pair of safety glasses and reusable ear plugs, which were given to the students, face shields were hung on machines that required them. I then put printed out the blue mandatory safety signs and put them on every machine, so every machine got safety glasses/face shield must be worn on it and hearing protection on the louder machines, e.g. drop saw.
    I then put a sign on the door to the room that had the blue eye protection sign and wording in blue that read “Eye protection must be worn at all times in this workshop”, I also put the quote from the WHS act that states the fine for failing to follow mandatory safety signs is fines up to $1000 per offence.
    If they don’t have have their safety glasses on and their ear plugs around their neck then they can’t enter the room. If I catch them in the room with their glasses on the top of their head they get kicked out for 1 lesson. Then one day I rang WHS QLD and asked them to come out and talk too/fine kids, which they did.
    1 student was issued a $100 fine for not following the signs. They said to the kids the school/employer has supplied you with the required safety equipment and directed you to wear it through verbal and signs, we were covered, the kids were breaking the law and fined for doing so.
    Every kid now wears their safety gear because they don’t know if WHS will drop in again.

  10. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt152 View Post
    Hi Bob,
    I’m a high school Furnishings teacher and I battled this everyday, until I made the choice that the school buys every student a pair of safety glasses and reusable ear plugs, which were given to the students, face shields were hung on machines that required them. I then put printed out the blue mandatory safety signs and put them on every machine, so every machine got safety glasses/face shield must be worn on it and hearing protection on the louder machines, e.g. drop saw.
    I then put a sign on the door to the room that had the blue eye protection sign and wording in blue that read “Eye protection must be worn at all times in this workshop”, I also put the quote from the WHS act that states the fine for failing to follow mandatory safety signs is fines up to $1000 per offence.
    If they don’t have have their safety glasses on and their ear plugs around their neck then they can’t enter the room. If I catch them in the room with their glasses on the top of their head they get kicked out for 1 lesson. Then one day I rang WHS QLD and asked them to come out and talk too/fine kids, which they did.
    1 student was issued a $100 fine for not following the signs. They said to the kids the school/employer has supplied you with the required safety equipment and directed you to wear it through verbal and signs, we were covered, the kids were breaking the law and fined for doing so.
    Every kid now wears their safety gear because they don’t know if WHS will drop in again.
    Unfortunately mens sheds are quite different to schools (I used to be a science teacher many moons ago so I have some idea of schools) I even supervised some manual arts classes back in 1978.

    We do have safety signs and notices on entering and inside the shed (I put these up when teh shed started) and we have SOPs on machinery only took 3 years to do that.
    At most mens shed the members arrive and leave at any time they like. Some stay all day, others for 5 minutes, some come everyday, some once a week others at all sorts of odd times. At any one time most members are doing completely different tasks. As a result the 5 minute safety briefing held occasionally (by me) at morning or afternoon tea (I don't even know if they have these any more) may or may not have been heard by a member or even mean anything to members that are present. At our mens shed new members sign something that says they will abide by shed safety rules but general supervision is casual as and most don't supervisors don't say anything when something is not done according to the "rules". While I call them supervisors, their real title as per the shed rules is "coordinators" and they are supposed to "help" rather than "supervise", Coordinators have no authority over members (that is in the committee's hands). There are are no sin bins, kicking out of class, or fines and most members would be against (some vehemently) this sort of thing being introduced or even speaking firmly to another member. Given the endless round of appeals available it is very slow to prevent a member from continuing to attend after they have infringed the rules etc. No one has come close to being banned although I do believe a member was spoke to sharply several times last year.

    90% of problems are that the members just forget to do what they are supposed to do and no one notices or maybe bothers to mention it.
    Like I said its all very casual and I do like casual but its all TOO casual for me.

  11. #310
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    Show them some of the videos on the SawStop website, from people who wish they had SawStop table saws, and used the right tool for the job rather than the closest thing at hand.

    Or show them some YouTube videos of woodwork and workshop accidents and injuries.

    If you can't do the job, pass it on to someone that they do have respect for, so you can get some sleep at night. This comment was not a personal dig at you, rather a helpful hint.

  12. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just George View Post
    Show them some of the videos on the SawStop website, from people who wish they had SawStop table saws, and used the right tool for the job rather than the closest thing at hand. Or show them some YouTube videos of woodwork and workshop accidents and injuries.
    I doubt that will make any difference - they will forget about the vids in about 5 minutes.

    If you can't do the job, pass it on to someone that they do have respect for, so you can get some sleep at night. This comment was not a personal dig at you, rather a helpful hint.
    I dropped out of supervision 15 months ago - it hasn't changed anything - maybe its got a bit worse - I try not to look too hard when i visit. My sleep is rubbish but it no longer has anything to do with the mens shed,

  13. #312
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    Well it had to happen sooner or later and yesterday it did and I was glad I was not there.

    A member was ripping thin strips on a TS from a thinnish strip of pine.
    He was using a push stick with his right hand and holding down the cut strips behind the blade with his left hand
    The timber pinched the blade and kicked back and dragged 3 fingers of his left hand over the blade.

    The member concerned is one who is a regular attender, generally enthusiastic and helpful, and one I would say who is basically safety conscious, ie wears PPE etc but simply hasn't read or paid any attention to the SOPs because there's little or no incentive to do so.

    Fortunately the blade was only just protruding above the wood so it just mashed his finger tips. Never the less it was a general anaesthetic and microsurgery to put the fingers back together and he will be out of action for some time.

    There is simply zero excuse for this incident.

    I wrote two articles in the shed newsletter in 2015 - one about how to use push sticks and various other pushing devices on a TS, and a second article on how to cut thin strips of timber from a thinnish piece of timber. I have never seen a single member employ the technique mentioned in the second article.

    And sadly my guess is nothing will happen about this.

  14. #313
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    As you said Bob "Well it had to happen sooner or later" and I think this applies to most Mens sheds sadly...
    I would like to get the articles on push stick you wrote so I can leave them at the shed I go to...Might save someone...
    vapourforge.com

  15. #314
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    Perhaps it's time a "concerned" member contacted the shed's insurers and workcover. Although Workcover won't be interested, the injury was work related, so treatment costs should be recovered via the workers' compensation, personal injury insurance pool, not the tax man.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  16. #315
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    Like Rusel stated seeing the original articles would be good. I for one would be grateful

    Cheers, Kerry

    Quote Originally Posted by rusel View Post
    As you said Bob "Well it had to happen sooner or later" and I think this applies to most Mens sheds sadly...
    I would like to get the articles on push stick you wrote so I can leave them at the shed I go to...Might save someone...
    Kerry Larkan

    Melbourne Australia

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