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  1. #16
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    When I was involved in a Men's Shed, we all wore name badges. The badges had a wide, coloured, very visible stripe across the top. Different colours indicated levels of expertise - especially with machinery. Bright orange indicated an experienced and trained person who had the authority, and ability to instruct others and to call a halt to anything that was not right. This meant that the supervision was coming from "the floor" rather than being imposed from the top.

    Working with older men that are sometimes very experienced and very set in their ways (often bad ways) means that you need to do a lot of "encouraging" rather than "enforcing". Older men can be difficult to work with - I should know. Just ask my wife.
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  3. #17
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    ..... this accompanied by a bunch of other stuff is making me feel like I should just walk away from the whole shebang.
    I joined a Shed for a while in 2014, and did not renew for this year for the same reasons (and a couple of others). The OHS was a joke, and came from the very top down.

    Dust extraction was woeful throughout the shed.
    Insanely dangerous practices undertaken by the Captain using a sliding table saw (cutting ten 5mm slats all at once - they were flapping up and down over the blade, with nobody tailing out).
    The same Captain not using Ear Defenders whilst using a router - reckons he wants to hear what's going on behind him (for a while anyway, until he's deaf)

    Face masks? Wot dat?



    Last Monday I dropped in to see my old classmates from last year (a non-Shed course being run at the Shed). Table saw blade now as blunt as a butter knife, dust extraction now disconnected from it. A (fairly senior) member decided to do several rip cuts in Cedar which caused the whole shed to fill with smoke. This ridiculously soft timber was causing a 5hp saw (with at least a 12" blade) to bog down when ripping 60mm thickness.

    Obviously nothing has changed re OHS. When this comes from the top down then I would say that there is nil hope of changing it, even a little bit.

    It'll drive you nuts Bob. If you do decide to walk away you should tell them why.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    It'll drive you nuts Bob. If you do decide to walk away you should tell them why.
    It is getting that way, once I finish the dust extraction setup I will seriously be considering my continuing involvement.

  5. #19
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    Bob I can sympathise with your situation. I worked for a white board cabinet maker for 16 years. Eight of those years I was Foreman for some periods to 12 employees and 5 of them were apprentices in varying stages of their time. I found it extremely frustrating to make sure that safety was being exercised as well as "best procedure" to be done.

    This continual frustration coupled with a boss who just wanted results and didn't "want to know" manifested into me with Major/Cronic Depression. I had to give it all away, and that was over 15 years ago.

    The problems with the blokes was never a "war" but niggley things all the time. I am thankful we never had anything but minor injuries to contend with because to way things are with Insurance Companies I could see myself in court because I was the immediate Supervisor and responsible.

    People have suggested I join a Men's Shed to "rehabilitate" and to socialise more. All I can visualise me in the same situation I was in when I was working. No thanks
    Just do it!

    Kind regards Rod

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    On Fridays I am supposed to supervise/coordinate the mens shed and we generally get about 15-20 attendees.

    We have a full safety induction, safety notices and signs, safety features in the newsletter, reminders etc.

    Here is a list of potentially unsafe activities I noted today.
    - using a wire wheel on a bench grinder with just regular eyeglasses
    - using a jointer on small stock with no push sticks.
    - using a screw driver as a push stick on a table saw
    - fiddling around with stock under an RAS with the arm fully extended and the blade running
    - not an activity but a donation from a member - a half dozen files with the the ends ground for wood turning.

    I'm quite a bit younger than most members, and I was not a tradie so don't have that credibility, so it's not that easy for me to convince the culprits to do the right thing.
    Does anyone have any ideas about how to get their attention about this?

    BobL,

    You are not alone .... When you ask around, you'll find plenty of people who have walked away from Men's Sheds, Woodworking Clubs, and Woodturning Clubs, and for the same sorts of safety reasons that you've encountered. I walked away from a Woodworking Club a few years ago because the unsafe work habits scared the heck out of me, and no one was interested in doing anything to eradicate the unsafe work practices. The event that ultimately made me walk away from that woodworking club, and never return, was when I was hit between the shoulder blades with a dinner plate sized piece of wood that had broken loose from a faceplate on a wood lathe. The club subsequently disbanded about six months later.

    The situation regarding "Work Cover", and the application of workplace health & safety Legislation and Regulations in Clubs and Associations, is very confusing, and unfortunately there are almost as many variations to the confusing situation, as there are states and territories and Australia, as each state or territory has their own Worker's Compensation scheme, and each state has their own Legislation and Regulations regarding workplace health and safety, and their applicability (or not) to Clubs and Associations. A Woodturning Club's Workshop in one state may be deemed to be a "workplace" and in another state the Men's Shed Workshop may not be a "workplace", and then there are states where the legal standing is just plane unclear.

    A member of the Woodworking Club that I used to be a member of, and who is also a Solicitor, advised myself and the club, that in Queensland, the situation was so unclear regarding Workplace Health and Safety in organisations such as Woodworking Clubs, that it would probably take a few court cases to test the legislation and to clarify responsibility and authority, and to force the Government to change the legislation to make the situation clear.

    The main concern that was raised by the Solicitor was, that the person who is the Workshop Supervisor (or whatever name you apply to that role in your organisation) in the workshop, may be held by a Court to be ultimately responsible in the event of the death or injury of a person working under your supervision in that workshop, and the organisation's Managing Committee Members may also be held responsible.

    The Woodworking (or Woodturning) Club (or Men's Shed) Committee may believe that they have insurance that indemnifies the Committee Members, Supervisors, and Members, but if an enquiry (e.g. a Coroner's Inquest) into an accident deems that the failure to follow safe procedures was the cause of the accident, then the insurance company may walk away, leaving the Committee Members and the Supervisors very exposed. Do you really want to risk the loss of your home and comfortable retirement ?

    As a Volunteer Supervisor at that Men's Shed, you may be held responsible in the event of a death or injury. I think that maybe you should talk to the top level management at Men's Shed Australia (or whatever they are called) to get clarification regarding what your personal liability would/could be in the event that one of these jokers that you are supervising does something stupid and seriously injures or kill himself or someone else, under your supervision. They should also be able to advise regarding strategies for ensuring that senior workers in Men's Sheds come to understand and comply with safety requirements.

    ALSO: There was a suggestion in one of the posts above to install video cameras in the workshop to record these idiots doing the wrong thing, and then to use that video to take disciplinary action against that member. If you go ahead with that suggestion - REMEMBER, that those same video recordings will almost certainly be taken by the Police in the event of an accident, they will be used in court as evidence ...... and as a result those videos could also be used in court against the supervisor and committee members, as evidence of the Supervisor and/or Committee failing to do their job adequately, in the court's view.

    Hope that info helps BobL. If nothing else, talk to the top Management at Men's Sheds Australia, or whatever they're called. Surely other Men's Sheds must have previously encountered the same problems with Senior Members, and have worked out a strategy for successfully managing these Senior Members.

    Regards,

    ROyG
    Manufacturer of the Finest Quality Off-Cuts.

  7. #21
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    Had an interesting Information session on WHS Due Diligence last week by a lawyer whose been a prosecutor, defence lawyer and adviser in WHS matters - made us sit up and make notes re safe workplaces and who is ultimately responsible and who will be pursued in the case of an accident. Bottom clenching stuff

    Apart from that, the WHS Act has the following diagram under the section on volunteers;

    image.jpeg

    All said and done though, I would certainly be clamping down on the safety aspect, or if you can't get any results, resign as a supervisor. You shouldn't have to be put under constant pressure re safety under any circumstances, let alone as a volunteer.
    Last edited by Lappa; 12th December 2015 at 01:44 PM. Reason: Damn auto correct

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    ......However, I am just a volunteer and I have no authority .....
    I disagree with what you have said here as a person we have the ability to speak to people. You do not need any authority or permission to voice your concerns. The most anyone can do is to tell you to go away which you are currently contemplating.

    The fact is no one likes to be told what to do, we have enough rules in our lives.

    I once had a friend come over to my house to use the Triton saw. I gave him instruction on what he needs to do and watched him start using the saw. I could see an possible issue in terms of what he was doing. I stopped the saw and advised him of a possible issue. He did not agree with my observation or advise, so I let him continue with what he was doing knowing that there could be a possible hospital visit to emergency.

    After I walked away he changed to what I suggested and commented later that it was easier. This friend is around my age and more mechanical minded. It just took a few minutes for him to think about what I said so that he could modify the cuts he was doing.

    What I find is that it comes back to how you approach people and what relationship you have with them.

  9. #23
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    Christos, what you are saying about "how you approach people" is quite valid and I do agree....but organisations like we a speaking of will have "an element" of "he doesn't know what he is talking about" or "I've been doing it this way all my life" or the character that will not comply just because he doesn't want to.
    Just do it!

    Kind regards Rod

  10. #24
    Mobyturns's Avatar
    Mobyturns is offline In An Instant Your Life Can Change Forever
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyG View Post
    BobL,


    The situation regarding "Work Cover", and the application of workplace health & safety Legislation and Regulations in Clubs and Associations, is very confusing, .... A Woodturning Club's Workshop in one state may be deemed to be a "workplace" and in another state the Men's Shed Workshop may not be a "workplace", and then there are states where the legal standing is just plane unclear.

    A member of the Woodworking Club that I used to be a member of, and who is also a Solicitor, advised myself and the club, that in Queensland, the situation was so unclear regarding Workplace Health and Safety in organisations such as Woodworking Clubs, that it would probably take a few court cases to test the legislation and to clarify responsibility and authority, and to force the Government to change the legislation to make the situation clear.

    The main concern that was raised by the Solicitor was, that the person who is the Workshop Supervisor (or whatever name you apply to that role in your organisation) in the workshop, may be held by a Court to be ultimately responsible in the event of the death or injury of a person working under your supervision in that workshop, and the organisation's Managing Committee Members may also be held responsible.

    The Woodworking (or Woodturning) Club (or Men's Shed) Committee may believe that they have insurance that indemnifies the Committee Members, Supervisors, and Members, but if an enquiry (e.g. a Coroner's Inquest) into an accident deems that the failure to follow safe procedures was the cause of the accident, then the insurance company may walk away, leaving the Committee Members and the Supervisors very exposed. Do you really want to risk the loss of your home and comfortable retirement ?

    As a Volunteer Supervisor at that Men's Shed, you may be held responsible in the event of a death or injury. .

    install video cameras in the workshop to record these idiots doing the wrong thing, ...... that those same video recordings will almost certainly be taken by the Police in the event of an accident, they will be used in court as evidence ...... and as a result those videos could also be used in court against the supervisor and committee members, as evidence of the Supervisor and/or Committee failing to do their job adequately, in the court's view.

    Regards,

    ROyG
    I wholeheartedly agree with RoyG's comments, it is still unclear! I did a phenomenal amount of work to address these issues as Secretary of the Townsville wood turning club. I worked with several others from a couple of the more enlightened clubs in Queensland and a legal academic, who wishes to remain nameless. We were all of the same opinion - it is unclear and we had no intention of becoming a legal test case! In the end I walked away from the club because the committee would not address serious safety concerns or ban some persistent offender for what most competent turners would deem to be "dangerous activity."

    Irrespective of the Workplace Health & Safety acts requirements or wheter a men's shed or club workshop is a volunteer association or is a work place (for the purposes of the WH&SA) all volunteer officers have a common law duty of care to others, including members, visitors etc. to provide safe plant - i.e. buildings, equipment etc.

    Videoing workshop behaviour is a two edged sword - it will work only IF the committee has the spine to say sorry you are too unsafe to use the equipment! If the volunteer committee and workshop supervisors tolerate unsafe behaviour - they will most likely be deemed to NOT be exercising their duties as a "worker" or their common law duty of care to another, which leaves them open to potential prosecution or civil claims and the club has provided irrefutable evidence on video.

    If you want to read something scary - http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/...m-20130412.pdf then http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/club-fined-over-gymnasts-death/story-e6frfku0-1225953967373 & http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/Doc.../5310T3307.pdf

    Volunteer associations have already been prosecuted for failing to meet their obligations and duties under the legislation. It also pays to be very careful or at least mindful in what you record and say to investigators as the last link indicates.

    To be honest if a volunteer is attempting to improve safety and is seen as a trouble maker or a maverick then it is time to walk away as you will not get the support you require to protect yourself from potential prosecution if things do go pear shaped.
    Mobyturns

    In An Instant Your Life CanChange Forever

  11. #25
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    Good discussion folks. Thanks for the input.

    Christos, there is a bit of a difference between a mens shed and your own shed.
    In my shed it's also my rules do there are no probs.

    Anyway I have expressed my concerns in detail in writing to the Shed committee, and also indicated if nothing is done within a reasonable time I will suspend my involvement with shed activities.
    Hopefully with my concerns in writing it might act as a wake up call, and I may have sort of covered my behind for a short period but I have few qualms about leaving.

  12. #26
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Hopefully with my concerns in writing it might act as a wake up call, and I may have sort of covered my behind for a short period but I have few qualms about leaving.
    What are you like at holding your breath?
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
    Jan-Feb 2019 Click to send me an email

  13. #27
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    We had a policy of notification of any incident that seemed to work. If an incident occurred a written detailed explanation of the incident had to be signed by everyone who worked there. Supervision of grown men who think they know it all is a road to frustration and is guaranteed to bring strong thoughts of suicide to the fore. We are all the same and we all think the other bloke is the problem, funny that.
    CHRIS

  14. #28
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    As others have said, sometimes people have habits, not necessarily safe habits. At other times things are done without the full thought process.
    As a user, and that includes the others present, you would have 'a duty of care'. It might be a matter of saying put safety glasses on so a loose wire doesn't go in your eye. Perhaps it would be better that eye protection is compulsory when machines are in use for all. If other unsafe things are seen, a quiet word of explanation with the operator might be required.
    At the start of your next day of supervision, a reminder to 'Think Safety' with the participators so they can see their family and carry their projects home might be necessary.

    Work safe and have a Happy Christmas.

    (BobL, I appreciate your posts on these forums.)

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    On Fridays I am supposed to supervise/coordinate the mens shed and we generally get about 15-20 attendees.

    We have a full safety induction, safety notices and signs, safety features in the newsletter, reminders etc.

    Here is a list of potentially unsafe activities I noted today.
    - using a wire wheel on a bench grinder with just regular eyeglasses
    - using a jointer on small stock with no push sticks.
    - using a screw driver as a push stick on a table saw
    - fiddling around with stock under an RAS with the arm fully extended and the blade running
    - not an activity but a donation from a member - a half dozen files with the the ends ground for wood turning.

    I'm quite a bit younger than most members, and I was not a tradie so don't have that credibility, so it's not that easy for me to convince the culprits to do the right thing.
    Does anyone have any ideas about how to get their attention about this?
    Welcome to the "go to gaol" position. It's a barrel of fun isn't it? NOT.

    At my local men's shed the supervisors meet regularly to discuss and agree on OH&S procedures and what restrictions might apply to particular members. This way, all supervisors "are on the same page" -- don't you just hate management speech -- when it comes to dealing with members who flout the safe work procedures.
    At the initial meetings, the key point that had to be got across to the other supervisors is that the shed is not anyone's personal garage or sole trader's worksite, it's effectively a factory. In a worse case event, the supervisor will be held personally liable. And it won't necessarily be Workcover who comes hounding. The injured (or dead) member's family is just as likely to sue for damages alleging negligence on the part of the supervisor on duty. Even if a coroner finds that you personally had taken all reasonable precautions, I can assure you that the experience is not a pleasant one. And if the shed's insurer decides that the breaching of safe work practices was so blatant and persistent, they could very well cancel the shed's insurance policy.


    Just for starters, given the behaviours you describe, a ratio of 15 to 20 shedders to one supervisor is IMO not reasonable. By accepting the task you are sticking your neck out.


    As to what to do.
    If all your shed's supervisors are not prepared to act as one in respect to safe work methods, and how breaches of safe work procedures are to be dealt with, your best (and safest) option is decline to be a supervisor.
    Gory posters and written warnings and turning the power to a machine off are all completely ineffectual if those things only occur on the Fridays that Bob L is supervising.
    It has to be one set of rules that are enforced every day of the week by every supervisor.
    But the rules and procedures need to recognize that the primary reason Men's sheds are supported is the social interaction among members. To that end, my local shed has a "thongs are OK" section. It's the kitchen, provided the member is not cooking.

    It took a month or two to sort everything out, but at my local shed, the worst offenders in respect to ignoring the "rules" -- including the supervisor who persistently removed machine guards -- were asked not to return.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Good discussion folks. Thanks for the input.

    Anyway I have expressed my concerns in detail in writing to the Shed committee, and also indicated if nothing is done within a reasonable time I will suspend my involvement with shed activities.
    Hopefully with my concerns in writing it might act as a wake up call, and I may have sort of covered my behind for a short period but I have few qualms about leaving.
    I would be putting a definite time limit on my "reasonable time" as everyone has a different view of what is a "reasonable time".

    I have been reading this thread with interest as a new mens shed has just been opened nearby. I have not become involved as yet as I have other things on my plate anyway. Also I wanted to let it settle as I knew that I would probably be co-opted as a facilitator if I fronted up early in the piece.
    Tom

    "It's good enough" is low aim

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