Thread: Compact workbench

Welcome to the forum, no the forum didn't "eat" your post it went in to moderation and had to be approved by a moderator, which I have now done.

This may happen a few times while your post count is low, thank our ever present spammers for that.

So next time you can't see your post straight away, give it a little while until a moderator approves it.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Welcome to the forum, no the forum didn't "eat" your post it went in to moderation and had to be approved by a moderator, which I have now done.

No worries, thanks for sorting it out.

I took the clamps off the second lamination last night and to my dismay I see more gaps. I was pretty confident with this one, I could hand close the gaps and aligned everything really well before clamping. I couldn't spot anything wrong after clamping either. After the glue dried and shrunk I guess I didn't have it quite right. I don't know if I could have planed it any straighter.

IMG_0583_sm.jpg

Have I caused problems with the strength of my top? I don't want to bang on it later on to have it fall apart on me.

I saved the cuttings from the rounded corners of the boards. They are almost wafer thin slices I could possibly insert + glue into some of the larger gaps. Is there a better way to fill them (epoxy or PVA + sawdust maybe), or do I need to start again?

Welcome to the forum Ironik!
Looks like a great project to get you teeth into. What sort of joints are you planning to use for the framework underneath? Screwed half laps would probably work, but mortice and tenons better.
The gaps may not be a real issue apart from aesthetics, so you could fill them. Just make sure its all attached to the bearer underneath. If I was doing a top like that for serious work I would have drilled matching holes through each piece and squeezed them together with threaded bar. Too late now!
As for your idea of a slot for clamping, it does have merit but I would get the sh*ts with tools falling through it. A hold down should work in 75mm timber, as they do have metal collars screwed from underneath I'm pretty sure.

Good luck with it, and I look forward to your progress.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Andy Mac

Welcome to the forum Ironik!
Looks like a great project to get you teeth into. What sort of joints are you planning to use for the framework underneath? Screwed half laps would probably work, but mortice and tenons better.

Thanks

I'm planning to mortise & tenon the legs into the top. I had seen a few versions out there that used through tenons & sliding dovetails, but seemed like a bit of overkill and probably a bit complicated for a newbie.

Originally Posted by Andy Mac

The gaps may not be a real issue apart from aesthetics, so you could fill them. Just make sure its all attached to the bearer underneath. If I was doing a top like that for serious work I would have drilled matching holes through each piece and squeezed them together with threaded bar.

I still have yet to attach the front 3 boards so drilling & inserting something to help with alignment and strength is still a possibility for that part I guess. The front is also more likely to get a workout than the rest of the bench. I've seen a few other bench top builds that use dowel or splines. I wanted to avoid using metal as much as possible, I don't know where and when I might want to cut or drill into the bench top later (face vise & dog holes?).

I was thinking a couple of long screws from the bearer into the top will help hold everything together without making the attachment permanent.

Originally Posted by Andy Mac

As for your idea of a slot for clamping, it does have merit but I would get the sh*ts with tools falling through it.

That's definitely an issue. I've seen a few split top designs that use a removable insert with gaps just wide enough to accommodate a chisel or saw blade, but not the handles. Not sure of all the issues around using something like that (maybe a PITA to remove it to allow the clamps access), but seems like you could avoid all but the smallest parts falling through.

Welcome to the forum.

As Andy Mac says, as long as there is enough of the glued surface making close contact, the gappy joints should be more of an aesthetic than a structural problem. If your joints were neat & well-mated before glue-up, my suggestion would be that the wood had a fairly high moisture content, and has shrunk away at the surfaces, where it dries most quickly. I've read somewhere that up to 18% is allowable for construction timber, which is 5 or 6% more than desirable when you are trying to make tight joints.

I had a similar result on my hardwood bench top because I started building before the wood had properly equilibrated. As the wood dries right through, the gap may close a bit, though mine have persisted as a faint, but discernible gap (which is accentuated by the grime that lodges in them over time ). The joins have held solidly for a bit over 30 years now, so it's not a problem, just a constant reminder of my impatience.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

As Andy Mac says, as long as there is enough of the glued surface making close contact, the gappy joints should be more of an aesthetic than a structural problem. If your joints were neat & well-mated before glue-up, my suggestion would be that the wood had a fairly high moisture content, and has shrunk away at the surfaces, where it dries most quickly. I've read somewhere that up to 18% is allowable for construction timber, which is 5 or 6% more than desirable when you are trying to make tight joints.

That's really good to know. I certainly wouldn't claim they were amazingly flush before the glue up, but I could have sworn they were better than when I inspected them after the glue had set.

Is there an ideal time to leave my timber before doing the laminations, or should I invest in a moisture meter and just check it until it's ready? I still have a bit of laminating to do with the legs (yet to purchase) and the rest of the top (sitting in my garage).

Originally Posted by IanW

I had a similar result on my hardwood bench top because I started building before the wood had properly equilibrated. As the wood dries right through, the gap may close a bit, though mine have persisted as a faint, but discernible gap (which is accentuated by the grime that lodges in them over time ). The joins have held solidly for a bit over 30 years now, so it's not a problem, just a constant reminder of my impatience.

Quite glad I made these mistakes now rather than on something more important, although from the replies I've had and eyeballing the gaps a bit I think I have enough of the surface making contact to give me confidence it won't just (easily) fall apart. I will try and avoid being too hasty with the rest of it, see if I can improve the joins.

Thank you for the solid advice!

Originally Posted by ironik

......Is there an ideal time to leave my timber before doing the laminations, or should I invest in a moisture meter and just check it until it's ready?....

The usual dogma is that if you start with green wood straight from the tree, it takes a year per inch of thickness to equilibrate. However, that's a very rough rule of thumb, drying times may be faster in dry/hot climates and for less-dense woods. It's longer for dense woods and humid climates. A moisture meter can be very handy, but they do need to be used carefully, or you'll get false readings - wrong data may be worse than no data. The certain way to find out the MC content of your wood is to accurately weigh some representative samples & oven-dry them, but that's a bit of faffing about, especially if you don't have appropriate gear. Your wood will probably be ok if you wait a few weeks, particularly with the warmer, drier weather coming on. It's often suggested that you dress your wood to nearly the size you want, then let it sit for a week or so. If it stays stable & square, go ahead & use it, if it moves a bit, you know it is still a bit moist....
Cheers,

I managed to get a fair bit done over the weekend, thought I'd drop by with an update.

For the wagon vice I was struggling a bit trying to put in the tail vice screw I had. I decided to purchase a different one that didn't require the screw to thread through the block having seen a few similar implementations online. The one I purchased allows me to use a block and channel that is a single board wide (42ish mm). I think this, and all the work I did to install it may have been a mistake, I have a few pics at the end of this post that someone might be able to help me solve.

I decided to get the end cap on one of my tops (the back facing one) using a mortise and tenon. Any mistakes here would be a little more hidden than those up front so it seemed as good a place as any to continue. I used a handsaw to start the cuts getting as close as possible to my shoulder line, then cleaned the rest up with the chisel. I think it went ok, not the cleanest cuts but it's all hidden away with the end cap on.
DSCN0631.jpgDSCN0635.jpgDSCN0636.jpgDSCN0649.jpg

Managed to find a bargain at a garage sale early Saturday and walked away with a few new power tools (including a router) and odds and ends. I put the router to good use pretty much straight away. Wished I had it before I chiseled the track for the dog block, which I had to do by hand. The other side I did with the router using a makeshift guide to keep it straight and was much cleaner.
DSCN0638.jpg

Next up I routed, drilled and chiseled a cavity in my end block for the vice nut. I think this is where some of my current troubles started - I left only a few mm overhang, but ended up accidentally offsetting the nut to one side slightly. It didn't seem to be a huge issue at the time as it still fit quite comfortably in the channel.
DSCN0643.jpgDSCN0644.jpgDSCN0645.jpgDSCN0646.jpg

The end cap got the same mortise and tenon treatment except this time doing most of the grunt work with the router. I think it ended up much better than my first scrappy attempt at cutting them with the handsaw.

I cut some dados in the dog block to accommodate a guide which I'd cut from a cheap plastic chopping board. They too are offset a little, I made a mistake when I measured taking one measurement from the top, then the other from the bottom :/ I don't think this should affect the operation of the vice too much, seems to slide ok, but looks a little ugly.
DSCN0652.jpg

Now we get to the current state of play and something I discovered when I did a test fit of the end cap and tried to use the vice screw. The screw is a fairly loose fit inside the nut, it wiggles a bit which becomes more pronounced the further you tighten. The little receiver thing (not sure what it's called) that is supposed to hold the screw in place wants to jump out the side especially when there is a little bit of pressure... which is the whole idea If I leave it the way it is now the screw will push against the front most board and eventually cause damage to the walls of the channel.
DSCN0658.jpgDSCN0659.jpg

I've been thinking on it and I can't think of a 'great' way to fix it. Some possibilities:

1. Get someone to weld a piece of metal over the mouth of the receiver part so the screw can't slip out under pressure. This would make the attachment of the receiver to the screw permanent which may/may not be an issue. The hardware itself is pretty cheap so I'm not that worried about permanent alterations.
2. Angle the face (right side) that the receiver screws into a bit so the end of the screw will always push down on the right side. I think even a few degrees might be enough to stop it, but I'm guessing this would affect the strength of it quite considerably (enough to matter?).
3. Use that few mm overhang, flip the block around so the mouth of the receiver is on the right hand side. The screw may still slip out but would be less chance that it would rub on the wall of the channel since I've got the screw offset slightly. The nut *might* hold it straight enough that this could be a solution, but I'm not even sure I could make that work with only the few mm or the end cap overhang I was going to flush up later.

So I guess what I'm wondering is... have I gone too far that it's un-workable? If not, I would welcome any suggestions.

There are very few situations that can't be fixed, or at least improved, ironik! The retainer for the screw does seem to be a poor bit of engineering, but there are a couple of fixes that spring to mind. Closing the gap that's allowing the screw end to pop out of the retainer is an obvious line of thought, but welding it closed would be a last resort, for me. Sure as apples, the minute you do that, you'll need to pull the screw out for some reason, & having the end permanently fixed means you won't be able to extract the screw. I'd look at making a metal piece that can close the gap, but which can be attached to the wooden travelling block with a couple of screws. I'm thinking it won't take a lot of force to keep the screw in the retainer, especially if you are able to drill the socket that accepts the end of the screw a little deeper. Doing that alone might even cure the problem....

Cheers,

Thanks Ian, that makes a lot of sense. Do you think it would also be viable if the receiver wasn't made out of metal? I could recess a small hole to hold it in the dog block then screw some sort of cover on to help hold it in place. Perhaps even cobble together my own receiver from a different material (since I don't know anyone locally that could work the metal) and try to mimick the way it distributes pressure. The plastic chopping board material I used comes to mind.

Failing constructing an alternative from materials I can work with I think I will try your idea Ian and try and hunt down someone to work the metal.

Umm, forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree but the whole assembly looks like it has been installed incorrectly? By fixing the nut to the apron when you wind the vise handle the whole shaft is going to move in and out of the bench as the jaw slides back and forth.

Bearing in mind I have never tried to fit one of these vises, it looks like the retainer should be attached to a solid section of bench and the shaft should protrude from the front of the bench through a simple hole. The nut should be attached to the sliding jaw piece with the shaft passing through the guts of it. So the shaft is now trapped in one position and winding the handle moves the sliding jaw only.

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

Umm, forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree but the whole assembly looks like it has been installed incorrectly? By fixing the nut to the apron when you wind the vise handle the whole shaft is going to move in and out of the bench as the jaw slides back and forth.

Bearing in mind I have never tried to fit one of these vises, it looks like the retainer should be attached to a solid section of bench and the shaft should protrude from the front of the bench through a simple hole. The nut should be attached to the sliding jaw piece with the shaft passing through the guts of it. So the shaft is now trapped in one position and winding the handle moves the sliding jaw only.

You are probably right. This thing doesn't come with instructions and it was sold as a 'shoulder vice screw'. I had actually originally intended to build it the way you described with my other 'tail vice screw', but the size of it was making it a difficult task to install. The biggest issue I found with having the screw extend all the way through (and the block mounted to the nut) was that the screw protruded into the cavity where work could be clamped vertically. If my bench top was slightly deeper I would have been able to offset it more easily but now that I see the wiggle in the nut/screw I think I would have encountered issues trying to use it in that manner (looks like it would probably bind when you apply pressure). Starting to see why the more expensive vice hardware with guide rails costs as much as it does.

I'll try and fix it up as best I can with the current implementation and see if the screw extending out becomes an issue. It didn't seem all that bad when I did the test fit other than the screw popping out the side of the receiver.