Thread: Question on Leg Vises...

Hi Brett. A very good question. I think the answer may come down to ergonomics. The following is info gleaned from reading Chris Schwarz and Jeff Miller.

The leg vice is as you say, mostly used for planing an edge on longer pieces of wood. With my leg vice I'll be able to plane up to 200mm wide boards and keep the planed edge at a constant height (with a sliding deadman). A long face vice can do the job of a leg vice but the height of the planed edge may vary more due to the screw depth being less, and if you are planing a lot this may result in more fatigue or less accuracy due to less control (100mm can make a big difference). The other thing a face vice does better than a leg vice is holding work on end for dovetailing etc. Again, the ergonomics of this type of work call for more height, hence the resurgence of the moxon vice. For those that don't know, this sits on top of a bench and raises the work holding to a height more suitable for a sawing action. Face planing height varies less (12mm to 25mm for most furniture, 50mm at a maximum) and is held between dogs flat on the work bench and at a convenient height again for planing.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the type of work you do. If there is little need for planing a long edge a higher bench with a face vice may suit better. Jeff Millers book, Foundations of Better Woodworking really opened my mind to considering the ergonomics of woodworking. I'll probably end up building another bench (less substantial) for power tool work (particularly routing) at another 100mm to 200mm in height to avoid bending over too much. It will be able to be moved outside the workshop as I'm still to find an effective dust collection solution for the router!

Hope that helps, Nathan.

I've been reading some more on your question Brett. Another reason for the leg vice over a twin face vice is the issue of racking. Clamping above the screws provides nothing below to counteract racking decreasing clamping force.

At the risk of seeming like a Benchcrafted fanboy, here's the link to what I was reading.
http://benchcrafted.blogspot.com.au/...ial-vises.html

Does this make a difference in the real world? I'm not sure as I have nothing to compare to but would love to hear others opinions.

Thanks Nathan.

Hovarter talks about the twin shafts eliminating racking too:
http://www.hovartercustomvise.com/products

Just going back to having a long hold on jobs mounted vertically in one side of a leg vise - even that would only be possible if the face was the same width all the way. If you look at the pic on the Hovarter home page (it flicks across) the face is cut away for the bottom half, and I seem to recall that most people shape them like this.

Also, when holding a job using one side of the leg vise racking comes back into play because it's only really working off one shaft. Racking is only going to be eliminated when a job is over the centre (more or less) of both shafts i.e. in the top of the vise.

Before the advent of metal vises the leg vise was a simple arrangement that could be fashioned by the timber working bench maker. They retained their place due to the surface area available for clamping larger panels without excessive localised pressure. Table tops, for instance, can be edge planed and hand moulded much more easily when dropped down the side of the bench.

Hi Brett,

Not sure whether your inquiry is just general interest or if you are planning to make one.

I have a bench under construction at the moment (slowtime)

It will not have a leg vise. Leg vises go on Roubo style benches and I am building a Scandanavian bench similar to the Klausz bench.

This bench has a shoulder vise which performs the majority of functions that would be performed on a leg-vise on a bench so equipped, and also holds parts for joinery such as dovetails, mortise and tenon joints etc.

To me the Scandanavian bench with its shoulder vise and tail vise eliminates the need for a leg vise, at least that is what I am hoping will be the case when the bench is finished.

Of course, others may well find a heavy, solid Roubo bench with a leg vise to be just the thing for what they are trying to do but for me the decision of whather to have a leg vise or not was made by choosing the style of bench that will not take one.

When I was researching what type of bench to build, I looked at Roubo styles as well, including leg vises and decided that the bench I have chosen to build will be able to hold any workpieces that I am likely to want it to, without the need for a leg vise.

Cheers

Doug

Yes Doug, all preparatory for a bench build when I've got the shed extension done.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Yes Doug, all preparatory for a bench build when I've got the shed extension done.

Happy researching Brett.

It is an interesting journey. There are many alternatives out there, and many opinions.

One thing to watch out for is people whose personal opinions coincide with their commercial interests. I am pretty sure that you are aware of this but others reading the thread may not be.

One suggestion I will make is to research thoroughly and do not commence the build until your mind is pretty well made up and has not changed substantially for a long time.

One thing that I am doing at the moment is making all the hardware first, benchdogs, vise handles, etc. This is partly because my back is stuffed at the moment and gives me something to do with little pieces. However I am finding it a good way to work out the finer points of the design. Eg, I am making wooden benchdogs now and will make benchdog holes to fit the benchdogs, not the other way around. Vises will need ot wait as they will need to be fitted to the bench.

Cheers

Doug

Hi Brett

The leg vise needs to be seen in conjunction with a sliding deadman. For long and high boards, such as a table top or door, the one end can be held by the edge of the leg vise and then the whole section is secured by a deadman and holdfast. I do not have the appropriate image to hand but this one illustrates somewhat ..





For skinnier long boards, such as when dovetailing the sides of a cabinet or a box (as here), I will use a Moxon vise. Indeed, it was the introduction of the moxon a good few years ago now that convinced me to go to the simplicity of a leg vise for holding long boards for planing edges.



Regards from Perth

Derek

Cheers Doug. I reckon I'll end up with a hydrid of some kind. There are aspects of a few different styles that appeal. Not all of them can be on the same bench I guess, as you say it's an interesting journey.

The one big thing i need to rule in or out is a leg vise - it's been on my mind for a good while, and hasn't grabbed me as a must have, where the Hovarter twin shaft vise has grabbed me as a must have.

Same with a Tail vise. Neither the Benchcrafted nor the Hovarter grab me as must haves, given that I've been very happy with the cheaper simple and easy to install HNT tail vise. After all, there is only so much pressure you can apply to thinner work pieces before they'll bend up, and the HNT can do that already.....and that's using my hair brained t-track idea instead of dogs.

Hi Brett. All the best with the research. It's a heap of fun but can be frustrating with all the different options. FYI, I nearly went with the Hovarter system for my vices. The quick release function almost swayed me but I couldn't find many reviews on them and wondered what longevity would be like with the more complicated mechanism.

In relation to your points on the leg vice. I'm assuming you are referring to holding a longer piece upright for end work when referring to the leg vice racking issue. Any situation with the piece on one side of the vice will definitely result in racking. I really think that the leg vice is limited to holding long pieces horizontally for long edge work and shorter pieces that can be held above the screw. Holding a long piece horizontally above the screws in a face vice might result in racking in the vertical plane and possibly a less secure hold. This is why I've also got the parts for the moxon vice for end work. The Leg vice can in a pinch also hold a door or table top on edge but will have the racking problem as would a face vice which would be holding it at one end. The Scandinavian bench excels in this respect and will also hold long pieces for long edge work. Whatever style you decide on it should be able to hold the wood securely so you can work on all three faces (face, edge and end). I agree with your thinking on the tail vice, too much pressure here is a bad thing. If you go with a leg vice, I really think you'll have need for a moxon style vice also.

When I was looking into my bench I did find Schwarz's book Workbenches: From Design and Theory to Construction helpful. I haven't liked other writings of his but this one did help a lot in refining my thinking. PM me if you'd like a loan of it, Nathan.

Originally Posted by DoctorBobski

When I was looking into my bench I did find Schwarz's book Workbenches: From Design and Theory to Construction helpful. I haven't liked other writings of his but this one did help a lot in refining my thinking. PM me if you'd like a loan of it, Nathan.

Thanks for the offer Nathan, but I have a copy.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I reckon I'll end up with a hydrid of some kind. There are aspects of a few different styles that appeal. Not all of them can be on the same bench I guess, as you say it's an interesting journey.

I looked at the possibility of a hybrid myself, different vises on different ends and sides. The concept started to look more like a sampler than a functional tool. Twin-screw vise on one end, tail vise on the other, shoulder vise and leg vise. I then looked at what functionality this added over just a shoulder and tail vise. I guess what I am saying is you might not have anything to gain by going hybrid and you might just finish up with the worst characteristics of both styles instead of the best.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

The one big thing i need to rule in or out is a leg vise - it's been on my mind for a good while, and hasn't grabbed me as a must have, where the Hovarter twin shaft vise has grabbed me as a must have.

Same with a Tail vise. Neither the Benchcrafted nor the Hovarter grab me as must haves, given that I've been very happy with the cheaper simple and easy to install HNT tail vise. After all, there is only so much pressure you can apply to thinner work pieces before they'll bend up, and the HNT can do that already.....and that's using my hair brained t-track idea instead of dogs.

You can get a shoulder vise and tailvise screw from Carbatec for about $30 - 40 each and build the vises around them. I do not see the need for a twin screw vise when I will have a shoulder vise for my needs.

If you have not read "The Workbench Book" by Scott Landis, you should have a look at it. Plans for several benches are included.

Cheers

Doug

Hi Brett. I hope you will excuse more of my musings on workbenches. The following are my reflections after partially completing my benchcrafted shaker bench. I don't think they will change much with completion. Do I regret any of my choices? A soft no is the answer. Like any expensive tool the vice hardware will be working the same today as in 20 years without fuss and working precisely. I should also have reasonable resale if I ever need to sell the bench. But, and this is an important but, is all this precision and ease of mechanism that necessary? I don't think that this is the same argument as the festool versus makita, bosch etc or even versus ozito/909. Three words have kept coming to me as I've been building the workbench, "It's a workbench" (well two words and a contraction). It has one function, to hold wood on three edges solidly and without excessive movement. I've spent close to $2500 on my workbench (Benchcrafted vises, two veritas surface clamps, finish, miscellaneous hardware and wood). The wood and miscellaneous hardware aren't movable costs but with clever design I think the vice hardware can be done much cheaper and without much compromise at all. The vice components were about $1500 of the total cost including the surface clamps and would now be even higher with the lower Aussie dollar. Here's what I'd do if I I wanted to save some money.

1. I'd still have a cabinet base. Reasons - storage, no pencils or parts rolling under the bench, storage, no shavings in hard to reach areas, storage. I'd definitely do it with the sliding deadman in front as I think this is going to be a great aid. Downsides- can't use holdfasts, but if the top is thick enough a couple of veritas surface clamps will do the job here. Not quite as much capacity but will clamp down commonly sized furniture parts. I can always use the overhang areas and clamps if they come up short. No real cost saving here as the wood in a cabinet versus open isn't too different in cost (in fact the cabinet may be cheaper as it is mostly out of ply and 25mm face framing). Bench top costs the same though you'll need hinges and door pulls which might even things out if going for a cabinet. Surface clamp costs also aren't that much more that some holdfasts (Gramercy being the cheapest I can find for a pair at $35US plus P&H to an eye watering $179US for one benchcrafted hand forged) and are more easily accessible in Aus.

2. Tail vice. I wouldn't be without one. I don't know of any other options for securing work for face planing. I would however save money over the benchcrafted/hovarter and get the HNT Gordon. Too much pressure here can bow a piece and negate the reason for face planing it in the first place so I'm not sure you need hulk sized power. Cost here HNT $170AU (no delivery if getting it from Carbatec) versus Hovarter $240US plus P&H or Benchcrafted $295US plus P&H. Also get to support a local!!

3. Shoulder vice. Yes, I'd drop the leg vice for a shoulder vice with the screw positioned over a leg on an open bench, or a built up solid face on a cabinet (to allow for the sliding deadman). A shoulder vice will do what a leg vice can do in holding long parts horizontally for edge planing, in addition to doors, tabletops etc. It can also hold most normally sized parts on end for dovetailing etc with the screw positioned in the middle of the piece eliminating racking. Downsides - a dirty big bit of wood and metal sticking out the front of the bench. As I don't have experience with a shoulder vice I'll defer to Schwarz who says this isn't that big of a deal in his critique of the shoulder vice. Another downside is that if using the shoulder vice for end work, it may not be at optimal height for sawing. If possible, I'd even look at decreasing the capacity of the shoulder vice to 150mm. This means less hardware out in front of the bench and it will still clamp most commonly sized furniture parts for edge planing. Need to clamp a 160mm deep drawer to tidy up those dovetails? No problem, deadman supporting bottom and two pipe clamps across the top of the bench. Cost $35AU, no delivery if collecting, for the shoulder vice screw from Carbatec, $140US for Hovarter vx20 for a leg vice(plus P&H), $369US for Benchcrafted leg vice with crisscross plus P&H.

4. Moxon vice. I'd go for a moxon vice over a twin screw face vice mounted in a sub bench for detail work and sawing dovetails. Even if I decided on a twin screw, I'd look at fitting it in a sub bench as the type of clamping I'd be using it for is probably better done at the increased height. Also, if I run short on clamping width, I can make another set of jaws and set the screws further apart. Cost Benchcrafted Moxon $149US plus P&H or $340US plus P&H for the Hovarter twin. Lets assume about $80US for postage - Benchcrafted AU $300, Hovarter $550. You could also use two tail vice screws from Carbatec costing $82. They wont work together as in the Hovarter but would be similar to the benchcrafted for a heap less money. Note that a moxon isn't completely necessary if using the shoulder vice for end work, but it will help ergonomics and get around the shoulder hanging out there when trying to do detailed work where you want to be close.

Total costs
Veritas surface clamps $206
Shoulder clamp $35
HNT Gordon $170
Moxon $82
For a total of $493 for the clamping hardware. Less if you have holdfasts already and opt for open design. Less again if not opting for a moxon. All with simple, no fuss hardware that isn't likely to fail if installed in the manner above. The saving over what I did is just over $1000 which can be spent on other tools. Did the extra $1000 I spent make my bench hold wood better than the solution I've outlined above? This hurts a little but no, unlikely. Yes the mechanism is a lot smoother in the Benchcrafted or Hovarter than the cheap Carbatec screws, but how often are you significantly moving a jaw in and out? I'll finish with those three words again, "It's a workbench". I hope that was helpful to you, Nathan.

Good thoughts Nathan, cheers. Don't forget to add your bench to this thread when it's finished: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f213/woodworking-bench-summary-thread-168697