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  1. #61
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    Lou, you seem to be going toward a traditional design. From your opening post I thought you were looking to:
    re-define the concept of the modern workbench. For the traditionalists out their this thread is not going to be for you!!!
    Mate, modern to me means that you might consider the use of modern materials? Want that trestle leg design - a steel leg might be the go, don't want to see steel, clad it.

    Mini's idea of a "multi top" could be worth a second thought as well.
    If the base benchtop has a centre well, then a "drop over" top would be easily to incorporate, and easily 'fixed' in position. Even have a melamine/masonite sheet that you can flip over. One side glue up, the other side for working. Or throw a few holes in the permanent top and have dowel locating pegs to hold the other tops down.

    Why not start the 'design' process by listing the things that are important.
    Height - is the height for working the same height for other uses? i.e. feed table for the jointer/thicknesser (a replaceable top might help out here if the height difference is not too great)
    Portability - does it breakdown for when you move? will you want a 'kick down lever' so you can lift it to slide in a castor frame?
    Drop in insert for a router?

    Maybe listing what you want to do will help set some parameters?

    Sorry if I seem to be criticising, think you are doing a fine thing - just my lack of social graces showing.
    Last edited by Clinton1; 5th February 2006 at 11:47 PM. Reason: edit stuff
    Cheers,
    Clinton

    "Use your third eye" - Watson

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/clinton_findlay/

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton1
    Lou, you seem to be going toward a traditional design. From your opening post I thought you were looking to:
    Yup good point Clinton I guess what I had in mind was not so much a great step away from traditional workbenches but rather alternatives to:

    1.Traditional Bench Dog designs
    2. Intergration of modern Bench accessories eg: Vacuum Clamps, Versatile Holddowns
    3. Re design of what I consider Overbuilt base's
    4. Showcase the strength of Old + Modern Jounery eg: Intergration of Mortise & Tenons with Pocket Hole Jounery and Epoxy REsigns

    etc etc etc

    Certainly though I'm open to all relevant suggestions BUT don't want to fall into the Trap of completely ignoring the conventional wisdom. The comments at the beginning of the thread were more to avoid a Which camp is best argument!!

    Sorry if I seem to be criticising, think you are doing a fine thing - just my lack of social graces showing.

    Constructive comments in the theme of the thread will never be taken that way by me m8...................always enjoy your comments/n contrabutions.....................adding a postive tone throughout threads



    Regards Lou
    Just Do The Best You Can With What You HAve At The Time

  4. #63
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    How about instead of a conventional screw vice we have one operated by either air or vacuum? Hold the piece with both hands and hit a foot control. Ther again what is the problem with a conventional bench? It has stood the test of time and still does.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mini
    How about instead of a conventional screw vice we have one operated by either air or vacuum? Hold the piece with both hands and hit a foot control. Ther again what is the problem with a conventional bench? It has stood the test of time and still does.

    Mini now were cooking. Thats been in my mind for a number of years now and it would be a sensational idea if followed through. You would still need at least one traditional vice to use with dogs, but one complete side and end of your bench with vacuum nipples would be just the ultimate. Great suggestion

  6. #65
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    Default Racking Fix Mk1

    Gidday

    Well heres a few ideas that I think will put the issue of Racking well and truely to rest. Through wedged & Tusk Tenons reinforced with pocket hole joinery & West System Epoxy for the Glue up!

    It won't go anywhere BUT on the slight chance that it does I'll just Dyna Bolt it to the Floor.

    Further comments & suggestions appreciated

    Regards Lou
    Just Do The Best You Can With What You HAve At The Time

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driver
    Greg

    That looks like a very good idea. Now I can see a use for that POS dovetail jig that's gathering dust under a bunch of tools.

    I can't give you a greenie just now but I owe you one.

    Col
    Merci, mon frere.

    Can you please advise later if it works? I think I'll copy the basic design, but 600 or so wide for doing carcass work.

    Gregoire

  8. #67
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    Hi New Lou,
    Always good to see you at work stretching the accepted boundaries! I think there is certainly room to add contemporary touches like tracks and sliding dogs, vacuum hold downs, even hydraulic clamps, but I having a bit of trouble accepting the logic of your trestle leg setup. Make a great 'table' , but workbench (said with maximum grunty bass ), I don't know. If your were planing, or routing mortices maybe OK, but if you go hand chopping mortices anywhere along the front apron, I reckon the bench will give too much. Whenever I do such tasks, even with a 100x35mm apron edge-on, I move the mortice directly over a leg. Without reaching over to the centre of the bench, I can't see you doing that. Call me a dyed-in-the-wool traditionalist, but I think certain aspects of a workbench have evolved for a reason, and something inside me says 4 legs might be one of them!!
    The well or no well debate is a purely personal thing, and unconvinced by either argument my bench has 1/3 of the top without a well and remainder with one! Looking at the shelf underneath your design, could that perhaps roll out a bit like a drawer? Alternatively, I've seen some of the trad European benches with a sort of tilting hopper or box under there, for tool storage. Any merit?
    There are some interesting design ideas in FWW's The Small Workshop, including one without standard vices, but using many of those sash cramps threaded onto galv pipe. They pass through the bench, and drop into wells under lifting top etc. even one vertical, as a hold down. Seemed pretty versatile I thought.

    BTW your CAD skills are improving rapidly!

    Cheers,
    Andy Mac
    Change is inevitable, growth is optional.

  9. #68
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    Gidday

    Yup some great food for thought & I guess time to come outta the closet in regards to the basis of My lean towards a trestle base design which is indeed the most contraversal component of the Mk1.

    I Love reading about looking at n drooling over all types of Bench Design but have often pondered how much weight an individual can get behind a Hand Plane to cause racking or sliding.

    I suspect with a modern approach using the latest types of joinery methods, engerneering nouce n glues we might all be suprised about how Strong even Minimalist approaches to a Bench Base could be.

    Thus my journey n conclusion (albeit a contraversal one) is that a super heavy grunty type base with four legs n mass strechers is just overkill and unnecessarily overbuilt.

    My opionion is that a trestle design offers the greatest compramise allowing for bulk without overdoing it.

    ..................For example just imagine through wedged/Tusk tenon Joinery reinforced with long pocket hole screws dowel pined and finished off With west system epoxy!................it aint gonna rack!

    Regardless of how much Shop stress is placed on it!

    The Trestle table sole's actually provide more surface contact with the Floor (More so than 4 Legs) & it provides the feature of pleanty of leg space to move round n over the Bench from any side! (A feature that suits my workhabits)

    I'm not really interested in using my Bench for storage. I'll develop some kind a cabinate and one of Lignums Right hand mans for that (But understand that when floor space is a premium this may have to happen).

    Which starts to lead us to some Joinery considerations. Starting with the base what Joinery should go where n why?

    Regards Lou
    Just Do The Best You Can With What You HAve At The Time

  10. #69
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    Greetings New Lou.

    I wish you luck, and I shall be the first to eat my words if you find the trestle design everything that you hope it'll be. The point about chopping over a leg is a very valid one-I say this from personal experience.

    The flat foot that you have drawn isn't the best either for the typical shed floor. Most such feet have a relieved bottom so that distinct pads are formed at each end.

    One other thing about joinery: The bench will take lots of abuse, and vibration, pounding, racking. Temperature/humidity swings. Maybe a mechanical joint might be best. You mentioned wedged tenons. Simpler might be a large bolt from the leg into the end grain of the stretchers for 6" or so. An open mortise to house a washer and nut, like a bed frame construction. (the workbench in more ways than one )

    Anyway...you are young yet, and this next bench need not be your last.

    Cheers

    Greg

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregoryq
    The flat foot that you have drawn isn't the best either for the typical shed floor. Most such feet have a relieved bottom so that distinct pads are formed at each end. Greg
    And for good reason. The smaller pads exert more load and thus more likely not to move. A larger surface will have lighter loadings and thus slide. You can push a larger surface on a floor easier than a smaller surface weighing the same.
    Can we have a dimensioned drawing please? I tend to go along with the majority and declare my doubts on the trestle frame, the joints will eventually get loosened by work and shrinkage. If you want clear space underneath the bench at floor level, a better design would be four legs set in 1/3 of the bench depth and the same dimension from the ends. So if the legs were 450mm in, measured from the front and rear they would be 450 in from the ends also. This would give a good clear floor where the user stands. This would be far better than a trestle IMHO. If you are worried about the bench moving on the floor stick some big screws through the legs into the floor, some decent coach screws will sort it out. One of my benches has 100x100 hardwood legs on a timber floor and it never moves. If you wanted more surface area on the floor attach some larger pads to the legs. Having said all that the only way to prove us all wrong is to build it and see what happens. I have no doubt it will initially be adequate but time and work will be its downfall.

  12. #71
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    Errr - the term 're-inventing the wheel' springs to mind here. Those old craftsmen knew their stuff, and their bench design. Certainly the 'western' craftsmen seemed to all evolve a similar design, whatever region they were from. No internet then either.

    One idea that I have considered to both allow fine tuning of height and differential floor levels, knowing the average tolerance of the average concrete floor, is to have a 16mm bolt threaded through each end of the bottom foot, protruding throught the base to a point. My Linn speaker bases use something similar. These would engage with the concrete floor and never move sideways (esp. with 250kg of hardwood on them) (but would make a wee hole) and if say 30 mm of the bolt is left above the top of the stretcher , level and height are adjustable.

    Purists could use wooden screws i suppose.
    The only way to get rid of a [Domino] temptation is to yield to it. Oscar Wilde

    .....so go4it people!

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregoryq
    Merci, mon frere.

    Can you please advise later if it works? I think I'll copy the basic design, but 600 or so wide for doing carcass work.

    Gregoire
    Greg - Good Ovening!

    It might be a little while before I get round to doing this but I'll certainly keep you posted as and when progress is made.

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  14. #73
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    Gidday

    ...............I think even Einstein had his fair share of constructive doubt.:eek::eek::eek: Just to re-assure that this type of trestle design is effective check out the Pics.

    I might however incorporate a 3rd Leg into the design for a dowell holepeg board to help the front vice support Large panels??..............MMMMmmmmm back to the drawing board??

    Does anyone think that incorporating pocket hole joinery into a intergral mortice and tenon would cause any unforseen problems??? (See Pics)

    Regards Lou
    Just Do The Best You Can With What You HAve At The Time

  15. #74
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    Hi all,

    Another point of view;

    Seems like the tail is wagging the dog a little here.

    We need a solid base that wont bend, wobble, rack or split. Timber is a rather poor choice given that it is either

    a. Living
    b. decaying

    and is always changing, slowly maybe, but its composition is always slowly changing. Expands in the heat, contracts in the cold. Loosens and tightens, squeeks and squaks, racks and binds.

    Mild steel, our new age friend , can answer all these problems. Steel just is, keep rust away and he will last forever.

    Unless the base is to be a talking piece I feel a strong steel base is the way to go. Very easy to order, 4 legs @ 850, 4 rails at ### and 4 end rails at ###, even if you get the local welding shop to weld it up if you are not that way inclined would still work out good value.

    Darkside the top and darkside the shelves and cabinet but stick with strength for the base.

    cheers

    dazzler


  16. #75
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    This months American Woodworker mag does a Torsion-Box Workbench & Expandable Assembly Table with two nesting benches with plenty of storage open to make a huge work area.

    Not exactly traditional but a different solution?
    Fantastic cheese Grommit!!

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