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  1. #1
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    Dec 2010
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    Default Vice Fitting Problem (I've been a fool and need some help!)

    Ignoring advice to find a vice before you build the bench, I went ahead and built my bench. I've just bought this lovely dawn vice (from a member of this forum actually) but am at a loss of how I can fix it to my bench!

    Third photo is where I'll hopefully mount it, and fourth shows (rather unfortunately) the underside of the bench at the place I want to mount it. The last photo shows my real problem - the arrow points to the triangle shape that joins the steel. Even if I were to cut out notches in the bench top frame to accommodate the triangular sections, the vice would still be sitting a good 25mm below the bench surface (as you can see in the last photo). If I was to raise the vice any further I would have to just about cut completely through the 4x2 that the ply bench top sits on.

    The vice is a bit of a whopper too, surely 10+ kilos. I also don't have anywhere to screw mounting screws (see photo 4), but this isn't as much of an issue as I can simply 'fill out' the underside of the bench with timber and screw it to the bottom of the ply bench top.

    Any help greatly appreciated, hope the description makes sense .


    Photo 21-11-12 6 10 31 PM.jpgPhoto 21-11-12 6 51 27 PM.jpgPhoto 21-11-12 6 18 35 PM.jpgPhoto 21-11-12 6 19 18 PM.jpgPhoto 21-11-12 6 28 49 PM.jpg

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  3. #2
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    Oct 2007
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    Alexandra Vic
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    Default

    This style of vice normally mounts behind the face board of the bench, so you could potentially mount it behind the front rail of the bench to get around the problem of the web behind the fixed casting. However this will reduce the opening range of the vice by the thickness of the rail.

    The biggest issue I see is that the top really looks to be a lightweight lacking anything to support the vice and the material it is holding. Traditionally bench tops are glued up timber on edge, typically at least 70mm thick to cope with high static loads (heavy components resting on top) and substantial impact loads when cutting mortices etc with a chisel.

    Recently magazines have been running construction articles for benches using sheet goods for the top, but these are laminated as 3 or 4 layers of baltic birch ply or MDF, glued and screwed. Both options ensure a top that is flat top and bottom, and solid. It is not uncommon to need to build in packers to support the vice mounting lugs, but there is at least 60mm of something solid to bolt it to. I would be dubious about packing out from the lower face of the benchtop as there is not much there to stiffen everything up, even if you run cross rails between the front and back rails.

    Maybe consider the bench a learning step, keep it as an assembly bench, and work toward a new bench. Start Woodworking (part of Fine Woodworking) has a couple of articles and videos on sheet top benches, and Shopnotes or Woodsmith have some as well.

  4. #3
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    I think you can recover this situation. If it were me, I would add another layer of ply to the whole bench top or, at the very least, under the area around where the vice will fit. That will give you enough depth to screw into and will make the bench a lot stiffer. Simply glue it and screw up from the bottom.

    To fix the height difference for the vice, simply add some timber liners to the jaws - you should do this anyway as the metal will mark any timber you clamp in the vice. You could make the liners a little higher than the bench, then plane them flat. Aim for something like 25mm liners on each side. Hardwood would be best.

    Trav
    Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreen

  5. #4
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    This style of vice normally mounts behind the face board of the bench
    That makes a lot of sense! I must admit that even three-quarters of the way through building the bench, I could already see some shortfalls in it. But alas I am stuck with it for the moment with very limited room. It is a very solid bench however. I think I'll grab another sheet of the plywood which will make the top around 40mm thick, which although sounds thin, it is very strong stuff. I'll then fill out the bottom. I have some red gum lying around and I was planning on using that for the jaws.

    Thanks for the help guys, I was very close to just start sawing at my bench...

  6. #5
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    Yep, I'll add my vote to mounting from behind the rail. You'll lose the thickness of the rail, plus the thickness of any wooden jaw liners. I'd use a liner on the bench side as well as on the travelling jaw. That ply edge isn't going to make a very satisfactory top of a jaw, and jaws can get damaged for various reasons, so it's handy to be able to replace them if necessary. The amount of opening you lose won't cause you much worry - this style of vise is usully used to hold boards on edge, so unless you are given to working on humongous timbers you'll find you rarely need to open it up anywheree near its capacity.

    If you are happy with the stiffness of your bench, I wouldn't bother addding any more thickness at this stage. It depends what you plan to do with it, of course, and the main drawback I see atm is that it's too thin to use for bench dogs or hold-downs, but you may not wish to do that in any case. If you glued & screwed a couple more sheets 500-600mm wide, across under the bench, it would serve as packing for the vise and give you some depth to drill a couple of rows of dog holes to use in conjunction with the vise. This makes a very handy way of gripping wide objects firmly.

    I'll be a dissenting voice & advise softer wood for jaws, because it grips with less pressure and is less likely to mark work than harder wood. A 12mm thick board on the bench side would be adequate, and a thicker one on the travelling jaw. The thickness of this liner depends on how much you want to overhang either side (I prefer a jaw at least 300mm wide) and whether or not you want to include dog holes in it.

    Cheers,
    IW

  7. #6
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    This is similar to the Record 52 1/2 vice. A search on that will find quite a few hits.

    Various mounting options are shown here.

  8. #7
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    Hi JPA

    When you've looked at the link Fuzzie posted it should become clear that the fixed jaw of the vise should go behind the skirt. You were thinking it mounts to the face of the skirt?
    Your skirt looks to be 45mm thick. The fixed jaw of your vise could be recessed 20mm into the back and the skirt becomes a stationery wooden jaw for your vise. Notch the skirt to accommodate the vise rods so that your fixed jaw is right up to the underside of the bench top. Putting a packer in to bolt your vise to the underside of the bench should become obvious.
    Fit the moving jaw with a wooden jaw around 50mm or more thick to come level with the top of the bench. Plane one face of this jaw with about a 3deg. slope to ensure it closes tightly at the top.

    I agree with others in this thread that you really need to beef up the benchtop.
    Hope I haven't confused you here.
    Brian

  9. #8
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    Default

    No that makes perfect sense. I had thought I should recess the back of the skirt to give a stronger fit - otherwise it's just two screws holding it there! That's going to be nice and awkward getting underneath the bench and chiseling into the corner!

    In regards to fixing the base to the actual bench top (keeping in mind I'll pack it out on the bottom) would you think some big screws would be suitable? I feel like bolting it might be a safer idea? As in figure 1 of the pdf fuzzie posted.

    Cheers

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPA View Post
    ...In regards to fixing the base to the actual bench top (keeping in mind I'll pack it out on the bottom) would you think some big screws would be suitable? I feel like bolting it might be a safer idea? As in figure 1 of the pdf fuzzie posted.
    Given the weight of a large vise & the loads it is expected to bear, I think Bolts would be preferable to screws. Means you will need to counter-sink the heads in the top, which looks a bit industrial, but if it bothers you, you could allow a bit of extra depth & plug them. I would probbly leave them open, myself, just in case the vise has to come off at some point down the track.

    Cheers,
    IW

  11. #10
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    Default

    Coachbolts.
    Pat
    Work is a necessary evil to be avoided. Mark Twain

  12. #11
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    I'm going to try coach screws on my next bench. They are always on the instructions recommendation list, but it assumes you have a thick bench made of real wood. Holding power in chipboard may vary.

    On my current bench I used carriage bolts with heads morticed into the bench top. I have found the nuts on the underside eventually work loose and drop off when pounding on the bench top. Perhaps a spring washer or a touch of locktite might help prevent that.

    If coach screws prove unreliable then it would be a simple matter to eventually replace with through bolts.

  13. #12
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    Default

    To make life a bit easier (though, possibly more complicated) you can remove the mounting plate/rear jaw from the vise. Makes test fits a lot less stressful.
    We don't know how lucky we are......

  14. #13
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    Hi JPA,

    What I would do is...

    Glue and screw a second rail behind the first.

    Slot and recess the vice into the front rail then add a skirt to the front rail. Remember the vice is clamping between is outer face and the skirt.

    I would be using a softer wood for the skirt and outer face (i.e. not hard wood)

    Adding another layer to the top wouldn't hurt either. Make sure the skirt comes level to the top.

    To attach the vice to the top I would recess the bolts and then plug (don't glue the plugs in just make sure they are a snug fit that way they can be knocked out if required)

  15. #14
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    Default

    Coachbolts go well into 4" 100mm Tallowwood. I have a dawn No 9 and a Record No 52 on the bench. All my other benches are pine carp gatherers.
    Pat
    Work is a necessary evil to be avoided. Mark Twain

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