Do u think that at this stage it would be too difficult to create square dog holes?

If I were going to do this, I assume that the easiest way wound be to rip a couple of inches off the side, route in the holes and glue the strip back on? Bench is 26" wide, so I don't really want to add more width...

Thoughts? I've read Derek's thoughts on square dogs over round in his bench build, which is why I'm posting the question.

John, I suggest you consider the designs of old then challenge them for appropriateness in todays world and the way that you work. I considered square dogs but only briefly. I have never found myself saying "I wish I had a square hole", not once. However, a round hole enables the use of holdfasts, benchpups, bench dogs, threaded rod, dowel, rope and a myriad of holding devices.

Whatever is put in the hole can have a square face if needed, or a board can be attached using two lateral dog holes as anchors. There is no right or wrong here, just preference; like the colour of the timber for the bench or sharpening techniques - each to his own.

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John, I agree with Groggy's sentiments.

I have both square & round dogs. The square dogs have some advantages as Derek has elaborated, but they have the disadvantage that they need to be fitted up during construction of your top, so you need to decide in advance how many, & where they are going to be. One advantage I don't remember his making much of is the expanded bit at the top which stops the dog from being accidentally pushed right through the hole in the bench. It's not so easy to organise that feature on round dogs. You can do various things to them, like turning the round shaft on a square blank & leaving a 'head' that won't push through, but you have to remove the dog after use, instead of just pushing it down level with the bench top as I do with my square dogs. This seems like a very minor flaw, but I can tell you it does become a nuisance at times, when the job requires much switching of pieces between various dogs, as sometimes happens to me. It's also dead easy to fit a 'staying-put' device to a square dog - an appropriate sized ball catch works well for me. Round dogs aren't as easy - I could turn a recess & fit an O-ring, as some do, but it seems like too much trouble to go looking for the right size O-ring, so I turn them up with an oversize top or leave the top of the blank square. It means I need a few of different heights, but they take less than a minute to make.

Round dogs are more convenient in most other respects - dead easy to make (so who cares if you bust one! ) and it's pretty easy to bung another hole in the bench top whenever & wherever you need it. The versatility of having holes compatible with other holding devices, as Groggy points out, is a VERY handy bonus. I use 3/4" diameter for my roundies, with flat faces of various heights cut in them (I keep a bunch in a drawer under the bench for different uses). The flat face is good, as the dog swivels under pressure to present the maximum face to the work piece and conform to rounded shapes (so turning in the hole is a feature, not a bug!). I haven't actually busted a single dog, as far as I can remember (and I have occasionally reefed a few pieces up much tighter than is prudent, as we are given to do), so I'm not sure why Derek is worried about that aspect - maybe WA wood is flimsy stuff. I do select scraps of reasonably tough wood like River Oak & Wattle, but they aren't anything super special.

So there you go -I think overall, it's really Tweedle Dum vs Twedle Dee, but if you do a cost-benefit analysis based on your personal needs & stage of progress, you might find round dogs very attractive...........

Cheers,

Attached Images

	Sq Dogs.jpg (97.7 KB, 20 views)
	round dogs.jpg (78.3 KB, 18 views)

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IW

I had square dogs all my working life, but my retirement bench has nothing but round dogs and I haven't encountered a single situation where I'd prefer square dogs again.

Decrepitude now prevents me from reaching under the bench top to push the dogs up, so I use the plastic ones that drop in from the top. I have several sets and some have been cut down for planing 3/16" drawer bottoms etc.

It wouldn't be difficult to install a set of spring-loaded ramps (on a single stick) that moved beneath the dog holes to push the dogs up if I did want retractable dogs.

If I'm sticking narrow mouldings etc, I do them on a wide board with a moveable fence (pull the nails out and reposition them) which is fixed to the bench with hold downs. So a row of dog holes close to the front edge of the bench isn't really necessary. My front row of dog holes aligns with the central push-up dog on my Record-style iron vice that I use as a tail vice. It works fine for 99% of bench-top planing operations.

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I know you believe you understand what you think I wrote, but I'm not sure you realize that what you just read is not what I meant.

Regards, Woodwould.

If you have built the bench top, go with round dogs. Don't sweat it. Round dogs will work well. This is not a huge issue. I have gone to the trouble of building square (actually rectangular 1"x 1 1/2") dogs since I believe they are better, and it was only a little extra effort to add them this way. Also note that I am only using this style along the edge of the bench. I will also have 3/4" diameter holes for hold downs elsewhere.

The issue about round dogs is that they (1) can rotate, and (2) require a cut out on the face to be flattened and orientated 2 degrees downward (to reduce work slipping). This leaves a small area on a 3/4" diameter dowel. Of course, you can build any shape you fancy above the bench and dowel it for the round dog, but then it is a bench accessory that needs to be stored separately. Square dogs simply slide into the bench and park there.

Regards from Perth

Derek

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My round dogs don't have a flat cut-out and are not angled in any way. I regularly plane thin drawer runners etc. and don't encounter problems with my parallel dogs.

As long as the wood being worked is flat and the tail vice action is coplanar with the bench top, then there's no reason why the dogs should be angled.

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I know you believe you understand what you think I wrote, but I'm not sure you realize that what you just read is not what I meant.

Regards, Woodwould.

WW, in the real world - my real world - this is rarely the case.

Rough sawn boards are often twisted. The number of times I end up holding one flat as it tries to lift itself over the planing stop ....

Regards from Perth

Derek

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Derek -as I've said above, this can be a useful feature in more cases than not, for me Once the pressure is taken up they usually can't go anywhere...

Agree with WW, it is not vital to have the de rigeur slope. I haven't ever been bothered by dogs not wanting to stay put (except on some rare occasion when pulling things apart with the tail vise, as stated elsewhere). As long as it's easy to do, worthwile insurance, p'raps, but not absolutely essential in my experience.

By 'small area' I take it you mean reduced amount of wood (after all, the principle of cutting a face is to increase the area of wood in contact with the work piece, is it not)? As to reducing strength, as stated before, I have never busted any of my faced dogs, and I chop a goodly chunk out of them (see pic above)...


Agreed - being able to push a square dog down into its burrow is a major reason for owning them. Having to extract a round dog to clear the top is a minor inconvenience most times, but given my propensity to lose everything smaller than the bench itself, these days, sometimes a major inconvenience. However, I am slowly learning to work methodically, and return things to their storage positions between uses, so I know where it is when next reached-for. I am getting better - in about another 50 years, I think I will have succeeded....

Cheers,

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IW

Come east, young man - the wood is sooo much better behaved over here....

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IW

The "flat wood" I referred to was the same, thin drawer runners etc. and I really meant "not banana shaped".

Round dogs work fine with twisted stuff; I just crank the tail vice up a bit more. Maybe that Jarrah you insist on using is the problem!

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I know you believe you understand what you think I wrote, but I'm not sure you realize that what you just read is not what I meant.

Regards, Woodwould.

why can't you put a ball catch thingy in a round dog then push it down level with the bench top

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regards
Nick (I really don't need a Stubby!)
veni, vidi, tornavi

A visit is indeed overdue.

Really Ian, I do not mean to make this issue sound so important (just answering a question why I did what I did). Too many other more important issues in this woodworking world.

Hey, perhaps we can compile a list of controversial topics:

Bevel up versus bevel down

Freehand versus honing guides

Square dogs versus round dogs ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

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Please spare us all the pain on that one!


Frank.

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In trying to learn a little about everything,
you become masters of nothing.

Tweedle Dum & Tweedle Dee agreed to have a battle
For Tweedle Dum, said Tweedle Dee,
Had stolen his nice new rattle.....

What would Lewis Carroll have made of wooden dogs?

It's ok - we are just chattering about minor points. Obviously, some of us have too much time to think about less urgent concerns - I'm guilty as charged! I've been stuck at my computer for two long days, trying to write what will be my last bit of 'serious'work-related stuff (about some diseases none of you will have heard of, let alone care the least about). I'm really getting into retirement mode, and finding it tough going, so I am thoroughly enjoying any diversion the forum can create.

My shed is always open, my friend - better drive over in a ute so you can take a few souvenirs home....

Cheers,

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IW

can I add 'To Tormek or not to Tormek"

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regards
Nick (I really don't need a Stubby!)
veni, vidi, tornavi