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Thread: Max shed size?
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9th January 2018, 09:53 PM #46GOLD MEMBER
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This is my impression. It it not just 30 mins to unpack and repack my workshop Tetris each day. The reality is that 2 hours into it, the wife needs me to drive her somewhere or something like that and then I go through the whole pack and unpack thing again.
I just get the feeling it is so easy to fill the available space no matter how large it seems on paper.
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9th January 2018, 10:31 PM #47
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10th January 2018, 01:26 AM #48GOLD MEMBER
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Damian what is a space frame and what is a portal frame? Since metal buildings are not normally used to house hobby woodworking shops, land of 2x lumber you know, I'm not familiar with the types.
Thanks
Pete
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10th January 2018, 03:00 AM #49
Portal frame
When I studied engineering, portal frames were self supporting to which the wall and roof cladding were added. They could also be used support crane beams.
I suspect by "space frame", Damian is referring to skin on frame type or stressed skin structures, where a significant proportion of a building's structural strength is provided by the cladding.regards from Alberta, Canada
ian
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11th January 2018, 04:59 PM #50
If you look at kit shed places they usually offer both.
Portal frames are big frames like the ones above. You bolt them together, bolt them into the slab usually at 3 meter spacings for "normal" sheds, can be up to 6 meters for really big sheds. Then you add top hats longitudinally then screw on the sheeting.
Space frames are lots of much smaller members all screwed together, then the sheets are screwed to them. There is a lot less heavy lifting but far more joints to make.
This picture is a photo of an industrial shed that uses both. The big members along it's length are the portal frames the smaller members on the lower left end are a space frame.
https://www.sdmbs.com/s/cc_images/ca...g?t=1361321054
This is more typical of a garage sized shed:
https://www.sheds.co.nz/assets/Uploa...ed-Diagram.jpg
For some reason I can't find an internal shot of a space frame garage, but it's a lot like a steel house frame:
https://mediacache.homeimprovementpa...ages/13810.jpg
There are a few problems with light gauge steel frames. One is they will collapse from radiant heat only in a bush fire. The building doesn't have to be alight just next to the flame front. Much slower to build and when I looked dearer!
The issues with portal frames as I said is intrusion into your floor space (offset potentially by there being a starting point for structures like shelves) and they can be heavy to lift. My shed is 7.5 x 9. I may have even lifted them myself but certainly 2 people easy. But a 7.5 span isn't huge. If you are building a 12 meter span you may need to rig an A frame or something. They are usually load rated so if you ever hoist things, mine I think are supposed to be 5 ton each but I wouldn't hang that off them.
If you are building the shed yourself and it's your first 90% of the time will be working out how it goes together. Once you've done one they are easy. Then 90% of that 10% is sheeting. I could have got my frame up in about 6 hours including beer. Going from 2.5 to 3 meters would only be a few hundred. On a big shed 5 or 6 meters gives you potential for 2 whole floors. The mezzanine will cost but no more earthworks or slab. Also good insulation from excessive heat. You will get about 7 degrees...
Anyway good luck either wayI'm just a startled bunny in the headlights of life. L.J. Young.
We live in a free country. We have freedom of choice. You can choose to agree with me, or you can choose to be wrong.
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12th January 2018, 12:48 AM #51GOLD MEMBER
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Smartest words in the whole thread right there.
30 x 18 x 4.8 attached to
20 x 12 x 4.8 attached to
16 x 12 x 3.6. attached to
16 x 14 x 3.6
36 x 18 x 4.8 separate that needs major repairs but i use it anyway.
Truck parked in yard , tractor parked in yard, skidder and dozer end up in the yard when they come home.
Reason : not enough shed to fit them.
Solution: build more shed.
This is what happens when your woodwork hobby gets out of hand
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15th January 2018, 06:30 AM #52
I have a double brick iron roofed shed built about 1930, conc floor completely clear span.40ft x 60 ft.
It has about 12ft to the 40ft Oregon beams, my bro and I replaced all the fabric 3 phase wiring about 20 years ago.
I run a few workshop fans and found the best solution is to mount them upside down from the beams.
That way they are not underfoot and can be directed where needed.
They used to be a hassle always lived in my area in winter and the renters in summer.
Re renting out spare space it’s ok moving your own junk but it gets tiresome very quickly moving someone else’s especially when their workbench is so full of treasures they’ve just scored they have to work on the marking off table all the time.
Best thing I’ve ever done is paint the floor (where I can get to it) I was forever sweeping up endless dust.
Sold off all the big ww gear and have a few car restos etc in progress in the main shed.
Ww gear now mainly in 3 x 10 annex, it’s a bit narrow but is manageable.
Still have a 30 inch disc and bobbin and a largish lathe the latter will have to go under the lineshaft in the main shed.
Mezzanine full of junk and pushbikes etc, motorbikes in the rafters.
Wife brought a steel 6’ cubboard of resources home when the uni closed the course, she could never understand why I didn’t need all that paper and fabric in the ‘shop.
I really can’t complain she’s used to her bros having huge farm sheds and plenty of toys.
When we looked at the property the house was such a mess but she said ‘it’s got a garden’ so you can buy it. When we moved in we had no proper kitchen just survived with an microwave and electric frying pan.
I must admit I can easily waste half an hour pottering in the garden on the way out to the shed.
I planted a red cedar about 30 years ago and even though it’s put a ding in the roof of my ute from a falling branch it’s such a buzz looking at it along with the bottle tree, silky oak etc.
Planning on redoing the bitumen drive and parking to something more absorbent and a building huge carport with a translucent roof so grass might survive under it.
I only have about twenty years of projects to complete so I’d better get off this and strike a blow.
And yes stuff does expand to fill the space available so be careful what you wish for.
H.Jimcracks for the rich and/or wealthy. (aka GKB '88)
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15th January 2018, 08:12 AM #53GOLD MEMBER
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15th January 2018, 11:49 AM #54Woodworking mechanic
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15th January 2018, 12:25 PM #55GOLD MEMBER
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About 139 of my sheds!
Seriously though, I know what would happen if I had that much space.
I'd end up with piles of crap timber that would be far too much for me to ever end up using and so it would sit there for years, just growing in volume and feeding borer.
Probably also crap machines that I'd never get around to restoring and were not worth the effort anyway.
Then I'd end up with 3 junk caravans for that caravan project that never gets built. etc.
It would be different if it was my income, but for a hobby I think it would be impossible to prevent myself from hording stuff I didn't need or even use.
Which would just give the wife something to nag me about.
Still, it would be totally awesome!!!! Hahahaha.
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15th January 2018, 01:38 PM #56Senior Member
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Hello clear out,
I'm not all that familiar with exactly how the forum works and when I received an email from the administrators that read "Dear lab rat, clear out clicked Likes for your post:...." , I went looking to find out how to clear out these clicked likes before I spotted that it was your name rather than a directive. I've never claimed to be quick but I thought I was smarter than that. LOL. But I am smart enough to be envious of a 40 x 60 shed. All the best. Jeff
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17th January 2018, 10:33 PM #57GOLD MEMBER
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So, heres the story.
THIS PLACE IS A LESSON IN HOW NOT TO BUILD SHEDS.
Dad built the original shed onto the side of a hill about 40 years ago. Thats the 12 wide x 16 deep. It was a farm shed... room for a tractor, and some hay and some workshop etc.
Then a skillion was put out the back on the downhill side, maybe 5 years later. Dirt floor (still) that was 12 x 14. It was basically left with a slope but later split into two benches each approx 6 meters wide. Stuff moved into the original concrete floored shed, tractors etc got parked on the dirt, horse stables etc.
Then the hill was dig into in front of the original shed and the 20 x 12 was attached.
Then the hill was dug into again and the 30 x 18 was attached to the 20 x 12.
Then the whole lot got too small and so the 36 x 18 was dug into the hill about 30 meters away from the first shed. It's on a separate title so had to be split off that way because of the boundary.
The place was a transport yard, and it all works pretty well if you want to handle palletised freight. You can turn a B double in the yard, drive into either of the larger sheds hooked up, unload flattops or curtainsiders in out of the rain (it is Tully), back your fridge van onto a dock and run the forklift straight in... and plenty of wharehouse space though it was getting tight in the finish and shed extensions were planned.
Dad got old and got out of the transport business, cyclone Larry came along and flattened my shed at Malanda and I needed a home for a sawmill so here I am.
Thing is with this place is that because its built into a hill with a boundary close on two sides access into the sheds is limited. Plenty doors - but most of them are a mile wide on a forklift with a chep pallet on... and impossible on a forklift with a 6m long pack of timber on. So I cant access some of the space to use it effectively: the original shed is shelves and tools and drum racks and all the stuff you need to keep a business like mine running, but a lot of bare floor for welding on because I just cant get into it with a pack of timber between all the bloody posts in the way.
The next thing you need to think on is the idea of clearways. you start storing packs of timber that long you stack them along a wall right? You go up but the safe limit to up is 4x width of pack. Then another row in front etc etc etc. You need spare space to unstack rows because as with any storage setup... what you want is always at the back. And the thing is in an 18 m wide shed, you need to have timber packed down either long wall for a couple stacks deep, but you need about 8m strip right down the middle so you can come back and do a right angle turn to go the length of the shed to head for a door. Now you might not think this applies to your woodworking shed but it does: same thing just on a larger scale. If you build your shed and put in a timber rack... you dont just have to allow space for the rack, you need to be able to have enough space to get timber in and out of the rack as well.
The next thing you need to get your head around is the idea of footprint. I see this everywhere, and i get around a lot of woodworking sheds both hobbyist and professional and the same mistake gets made over and over. Lets say you got a thicknesser, lets say you're looking at 1m x 1m of floor space dedicated to this machine. Might not be that but doesnt matter.... principle is the same regardless. So you're designing your new layout and you block it on a bit of paper, and put your tablesaw there and your shelf there and shes all perfect. Put toys in shed and its a total. The reason is simple... that thicknesser doesnt need 1 x 1, because its handling 12' boards you need 1 x 1... plus 3.6m either side of it plus some walk around room and that thicknessers actual footprint is about 2 x 10. We handle a lot of long boards - the footprints get huge.
And well... we're in the timber business. Its like going to woolies... you kinda expect to see stock on the shelves. When Im running properly here we can have a couple hundred ton of timber on the floor... everything from high value cabinet woods and flooring to framing hardwood to downgrade stuff like dunnage and stakes. I burnt a lot of "rubbish" two years back... this year we were cutting logs to get 25 x 25's and that "rubbish" was 20 grand I'd sent up in smoke.
In all honesty if I could lay all this floor space out in the right way I'd have a mile of room. But I got what I got and I work around it but yeah... we have a lot of dead space because the sheds were not designed for the material and machinery they hold. Try screwing a pack of 7.5 meter timbers through a 6m wide door and you can lose 10 minutes every time.
Now, if I was starting with a blank slate, and I was putting in a shed for me as woodworker this is what I'd do:
I'd make it 6m wide. Why? Because 6m is a standard length of steel. or even 3m if space constrained. Work with the material at hand: no cutting and making offcuts. If timber 4.5m. WHY?. Every mill in Australia has a price increase for lengths over 4.5m in standard framing sizes.
Bay width whatever suits but go as long as I could afford, allowing room for extensions down the road.
I'd have doors down both long sides. Whack a machine in the middle and with the doors open you can handle whatever length you want while still having weather protection and room to move. Plenty natural light that way too, airflow and noise attenuation. Want to make a machine sound loud you turn it on in the garage rather then the driveway right? All those doors are being nice to your neighbors by reducing the noise level.
Timber racks also facing out the doors... pull a board, walk down the outside the shed, come through the right door for the machine.
Yeah you might have to buy a few more meters of ducting for the dusty.... but I tell ya, over the lifetime of a shed thats a small price to pay.
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17th January 2018, 10:52 PM #58
John, you speak of getting 7.5M packs through a 6M opening. So I best not speak of getting 6M lengths of z purlin through a 1.2 opening then. LOL
There ain't no devil, it's just god when he's drunk!!
Tom Waits
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17th January 2018, 11:34 PM #59
Side shift man, side shift. Don't want to blow my trumpet, but, I'm a skilled operator who just likes to do woodwork and stuff.
CheersThere ain't no devil, it's just god when he's drunk!!
Tom Waits
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20th January 2018, 05:07 PM #60GOLD MEMBER
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Thanks John.
That sounds like great advice.
So you are saying 4.5m doors for the wide side and min 3m doors for each bay down the long side?
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