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  1. #16
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    Many thanks to those who suggested skipping the piping of hot water - as it turns out the run from the hot water service is no longer than the runs inside the house, and I am thinking we will ask them to thermally insulate the hot water pipe as they put it in the ground.

    Woodpixel - we're already connected to, using, and paying for town gas, so this will be a private extension off the already connected system - thank you for the thought on it though, as I'm sure it'd be easy to forget if the service wasn't in use already!

    Ian - thank you, I will check on the pipe size - in case we ever do want to convert to a hot water service inside the shed, we may as well make sure the pipe laid now can handle it!

    Whilst I refuse to buy from Whinging Gerry, I found the following product: https://www.harveynorman.com.au/rinn...um-silver.html - would anyone know if this was safe to use in a woodworking shop? I'm assuming from the replies above that it should be - but confess ignorance at the potential issue of an unflued gas heater and what issues/dangers exist, if any?

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  3. #17
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    Jan 2014
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    Sydney Upper North Shore
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    I run that heaters big brother. It has an oxygen detectors to turn it off if levels fall below a certain level. I monitored CO and CO2 levels when I first bought mine and it was fine.
    The problem is when the room is too small/ heater too big.
    Mine heats a huge room and when I leave the doors open, warms the rest of the house.

  4. #18
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    Before buying and unflued gas heater in any human habitation situation ,maybe check this out.
    Sale of open-flue gas heaters to be banned in Victoria after women poisoned - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

    Like dust there's no safe level of exposure for everyone and as there's been no detailed research on individual chemical sensitivities of these things its probably best to avoid them.
    They might start out with all sorts of sensors and safety features but unless they are regularly checked you never know where you are with them.

    We got rid of our unflued gas heater more than 20 years ago - every time we turned it on SWMBO ended up losing a couple of days work.

  5. #19
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    Had mine 5 years and no problems. The article you point to mentions exactly what I mentioned - room size vs heater size.

  6. #20
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    Had mine 5 years and no problems. The article you point to mentions exactly what I mentioned - room size vs heater size.

    I'm not saying yours is not OK but like dust it might take some people a while to build up sensitivities to the trace amounts of unknown gasses they emit.

    We bought an unflued (Rinnai) heater around 1982 and SWMBO seemed to be fine with it for a few ears but eventually we noticed that whenever we used the heater for more than about an hour she seemed to feel ill. We had the heater checked several times and the gas people always said it was OK. Then we went OS for a few years and lived in housing with electric heaters with no problems. When we came back and winter arrived we got the old heater out and noticed the same thing all over again. We started to keep notes and sure enough every time the heater was used for more than about an hour there was a problem for the next day or so. We ditched the heater and switched to reverse cycle heating and the nausea diminished but not completely. Then we realised we still had a gas stove (cooktop and oven) so we replaced those and the nausea has gone. We have gas hot water but that heater is outside.

    SWMBO has a very sensitive nose and is a bit of a canary with certain chemicals. Cigarette smoke was really bad for her. She can tolerate refuelling a diesel vehicle but petrol makes her really feel nauseated. Sitting in traffic jams is not good either. Some cleaners give her headaches. When we had our wooden floors done recently with 2pack PU I could handle the smell after 24 hours but she couldn't cope and went to stay with family for a few more days. My sense of smell has never quite been the same since I lost it for 6 weeks working with MDF back in 2002.

    SWMBO also used to get motion sickness really badly on anything that moved - even a simple merry go round. When we first me she couldn't go on any rides at fun parks etc. This has improved in the last few years with better motion sickness drugs.

  7. #21
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    Aug 2007
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    Saskatoon, SK, Canada.
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    Wouldn't that kind of heater produce a lot of moisture in the shop? The NG heater in my garage has a pile of ice that accumulates on the ground under the outside wall vent. You can also see the vapour around the pipe when it is venting.

    Pete

  8. #22
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    Jan 2014
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    Sydney Upper North Shore
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    I'm not saying yours is not OK but like dust it might take some people a while to build up sensitivities to the trace amounts of unknown gasses they emit.
    Unless you have a meth lab running in the house, I think the gases are given off would be known. Our workshops are all heated with ceiling mounted, open grill gas heaters plus a couple of gas turbo tubes and I, and a lot of my colleagues, have been working in such workshops for many, many years.

    i have always used gas stoves and I also believe most restaurants do as well

    Your whole argument on bagging a heater is based on one article, which clearly states my argument re heater vs room size and the experience of one person.

    JMO
    .

  9. #23
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    Unless you have a meth lab running in the house, I think the gases are given off would be known. Our workshops are all heated with ceiling mounted, open grill gas he Your whole argument on bagging a heater is based on one article, which clearly states my argument re heater vs room size and the experience of one person.
    Do a google search for "health effects of unflued gas heaters"

  10. #24
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    Nov 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Man View Post
    the run from the hot water service is no longer than the runs inside the house, and I am thinking we will ask them to thermally insulate the hot water pipe as they put it in the ground?
    While it doesn't do any harm, but most likely it won't save you any running cost at all unless you are considering using a lot of hot water in your shed. If you are likely to be just washing your hands and doing it rather infrequently, the heat loss, insulated or not is exactly the same because all that column of water in the pipe would have cooled down to ambient temperature by the time you turn the tap on the next time. What would be more worthwhile is spending money to dig a deeper trench to bury your services to the shed. Normally your plumber would only bury it at 150 mm below ground. Any time when you decide to dig a hole in the garden for any sort of purpose, it is likely to be deeper than 150. The gold standard is to bury your services 600 mm below ground with a warning tape at 150 mm above that. If the ground is really hard, you may decide not to bury it as deep as 600, but try to bury no shallower than 450. You will save yourself a lot of heartache. Also if you are willing to do it yourself, it will be free labour. Another advantage of burying 600 deep is that the earth at that depth is at a fairly constant temperature all year around at say 18 degC which probably feels slightly warmer than water serviced by exposed pipework in winter.

  11. #25
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    Aug 2011
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    bilpin
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    The shed is one of the most versatile constructions you can own. The addition of gas for a mere $100 is a no brainer. Think extra shower, granny flat, the list goes on and on.

  12. #26
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    Dec 2010
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    Mornington Peninsula
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    Unless you have a meth lab running in the house, I think the gases are given off would be known.


    Your whole argument on bagging a heater is based on one article, which clearly states my argument re heater vs room size and the experience of one person.

    JMO
    .
    As someone who used to be a 2IC and OIC of a mobile testing laboratory checking on products of combustion from gas appliances - i would NEVER have a flueless heater in my home.

    There are many variables, but the health effects are far reaching from products of combustion. What affects one person in the short term may not affect another, but be sure that over the long term they will.

  13. #27
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    Jul 2015
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    Many thanks to those who have posted additional thoughts!

    Regarding depth of trench, I am hearing 600mm from the plumber, because they are running gas and want it nice and deep as a result. Thank you for the information on insulation of the hot water line, it makes sense so we'll avoid the additional cost on that.

    I want to also apologise for any angst that this thread may have caused regarding unflued heating - be assured it is something I will investigate further before deciding either way, and I am also thinking the reality is it won't see a lot of use, our weather here is mostly temperate, so it will get fairly infrequent use - perhaps for safety on that side, a reverse cycle split system might be a better choice anyway, as I'd gain cooling too, which is likely more useful than heating

    Many thanks again for all the input!

  14. #28
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    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by cava View Post
    As someone who used to be a 2IC and OIC of a mobile testing laboratory checking on products of combustion from gas appliances - i would NEVER have a flueless heater in my home.

    There are many variables, but the health effects are far reaching from products of combustion. What affects one person in the short term may not affect another, but be sure that over the long term they will.
    I’d be interested in what compounds/products you were testing for.

    So you wouldn’t have a gas stove either? Just curious

  15. #29
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lappa View Post
    So you wouldn’t have a gas stove either? Just curious
    Although it didn't help seem to help SWMBO, most folks do have some form of extraction directly above their stove.
    One thing I forgot to mention with SWMBO is we have an LPG stove built into our tiny caravan and because of her sensitivities we bought a stand alone camping stove to use outside. On about our second or 3rd camping trip we forgot to bring it along so we had to use the van stove and that didn't seem to bother her at all. we met she also lived in a house with an LPG stove for about 2 years and that was no problem either.

    Back to MM's idea of using a reverse cycle, I reckon there there are about a dozen days a year here in Perth where I heating would be nice in the shed but about 40 where cooling is advantageous so I didn't bother getting reverse cycle AC in the shed - just cooling. Even inside the house we only heat a few days a year or when we babysit. These last few days it has been 3º overnight but we still haven't turned on the heating, just wear an extra layer of clothing.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Although it didn't help seem to help SWMBO, most folks do have some form of extraction directly above their stove.
    .
    Many if these just recirc. back into the room

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