Thread: Overhead storage with side access

Hi buballo,
Your idea looks fantastic, it should be more than strong enough. When you assemble it are you gluing and screwing it together??? One thing extra I'd do, is to put something on the sides to stop items from falling off it it's knocked. Might even use a similar idea when I get my extension finished.
How are you proposing to hold the ladder up???
Kryn

Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore

Hi buballo,
Your idea looks fantastic, it should be more than strong enough. When you assemble it are you gluing and screwing it together??? One thing extra I'd do, is to put something on the sides to stop items from falling off it it's knocked. Might even use a similar idea when I get my extension finished.
How are you proposing to hold the ladder up???
Kryn

Thanks KBs, sometimes you just need some reassurance. Plan was to dry fix to be honest, the only reason was to have flexibility in the future to modify it as my interest in woodworking evolve. This is my first step to getting a table saw, router table workstation with a drop saw in a very limited space (more on that later ). I was thinking to have an eyelet or something similar on the top and bottom plates on 2 or 3 of the brackets and linking it with some hook ties or rope to stop things dropping. But I will think that through a bit more.

In relation to the ladder. As I am lifting it most of the time myself, I am trying to get the alignment to work so I can easily drop it onto the roof rack on my ute, tie it up and leave. I may struggle with this due to the odd joist layout. That is also part of the reason the top plate is wider so I can play with the position of the bracket along the length of the top plate to have more flexibility. When I want to use the ladder around the house, I have one of these retractable ratchet tie downs which has a fixed anchor. I can pull this down and lift one end of the ladder, this way I only need to lift 1 end a metre or less off the ground and ratchet it up. Can come up with some sort of plate to keep the ladder level. Potentially, do the same on the other side. I will experiment with this as well and see the best way forward. The biggest issue was the bracket...get that right the rest will be easy.

Thanks again.

What is above the ceiling? A floor, or a trussed roof?

Originally Posted by richmond68

What is above the ceiling? A floor, or a trussed roof?

Gday Richmond,
They are LP solid Start I joists - LPI 20 series 302mm deep spaced at 450mm centres.
2014-08-27 10.53.15.jpeg2014-07-02 16.53.59.jpeg2014-08-27 10.53.19.jpeg
The second photo shows the random alignment of the floor joists spanning between the steel structure. The other 2 show the joist types.

Cheers

Well that makes it interesting. The reason I asked is that it's common for people to worry about the strength of the brackets but not the structure it attaches to. Had it been a trussed roof above it is easier to make structural additions such as adding a hanging beam to support the additional load. Floors are more complicated.

Those I joists are made by gluing the top and bottom chord to the OSB web, anything you hang from it will depend on the strength of the glue bond between that 9.5mm OSB and the 70x35 bottom chord. I've never been confident in hanging much from them. Distribute the load as much as you can.

Originally Posted by richmond68

Well that makes it interesting. The reason I asked is that it's common for people to worry about the strength of the brackets but not the structure it attaches to. Had it been a trussed roof above it is easier to make structural additions such as adding a hanging beam to support the additional load. Floors are more complicated.

Those I joists are made by gluing the top and bottom chord to the OSB web, anything you hang from it will depend on the strength of the glue bond between that 9.5mm OSB and the 70x35 bottom chord. I've never been confident in hanging much from them. Distribute the load as much as you can.

Ouch...I know the joists are capable of the weight as my spans are much less than the maximum allowed in their data sheets, and my structural steel was over engineered to reduce deflection for tiling upstairs....but that glued connection from OSB to the bottom chord has got me worried now. I'm glad you brought this to my attention as it was the first project I have used this system. I sent a request LP Solid Start direct to ask, wont hurt. I am expecting the standard response that I need to engage an engineer, however, I pitched the query to be more on there is no connection detail through a lined ceiling and if it is ok to screw direct. Will see what comes back.

Caveat -- this is not professional engineering advice

1. your I-beams are designed to be loaded on the top flange only. Hanging stuff heavier than gyprock or a light or two off the bottom flange is a really bad idea.

2. you could fashion a bracket that ensures the load is applied to the top flange of the beam -- there appears to be enough space between the flange and the underside of the flooring.

3. but in your photos, I can't see any bracing or stiffening that would stop your beams trying to fall over onto their sides. Loading I-beams up to near their design load without this bracing is not a good idea.

Look, I don't want to scare you off, those engineered joists are pretty strong as is the glue bond. But they are used for a specific design load on the joist. That is, the dead load of the structure plus live load of 1.5kn for domestic. I'm more familiar with product from CHH and Tillings, neither provide detail for suspended load. One reason that I'm cautious is that they use LVL for the chords, which can contain filled voids just like CD ply does.

You are adding to the live load, so it would help to know a reasonable estimate of the load and the area it is distributed over. Eg 3.6m long by 0.9 metre wide is 3.24m2, With the brackets you've designed you could easily get a third of a cube of pine onto that at 650kg a cube so that's something like 230kg, plus the weight of the brackets, plus your ladder. Call it 270kg. That's nearly 84kg/m2, which is more than half of your LL. Using 4 brackets fixed across 3 joists gives 12 attachment points at a little over 20kg each, so screw anchor strength isn't a problem.

Annoying (and costly) as it is, it really is something to run past a structural engineer, which I am not. It could be no problem, he or she might suggest distributing the load over more joists, or in the extreme removing the gyprock and adding stiffeners to the joists (they're easy to turn into box beams) or additional support. It all depends on the load. Substitute hardwood for the pine in the above calc and you'd be hanging half a tonne, which would leave no doubt why your floor has sunk

Originally Posted by ian

Caveat -- this is not professional engineering advice

1. your I-beams are designed to be loaded on the top flange only. Hanging stuff heavier than gyprock or a light or two off the bottom flange is a really bad idea.

2. you could fashion a bracket that ensures the load is applied to the top flange of the beam -- there appears to be enough space between the flange and the underside of the flooring.

3. but in your photos, I can't see any bracing or stiffening that would stop your beams trying to fall over onto their sides. Loading I-beams up to near their design load without this bracing is not a good idea.

Gday Ian, thanks for your response.

Item 1: Garage already gyprocked so need to assess whether I want to start cutting holes and patching. The benefit of getting to the top though is I wont need to spread the load over 3 joists.

Item 2: I can get those 2 verticals pieces of my bracket to slide up either side of the joist and deal with some sort of fixing in accordance with the manufacturers recommendation. Seen a few suggestions on line about laminating more ply against the OSB to strengthen it as well;

Item 3: If you look at the photos 1 and 3 you will see the noggins between the joists directly adjacent to the steel beam (in black). There is no way these things will roll. Unless you are talking about something else?

There is also some overseas product called TJI joists, which allow you to screw into the bottom chord up to 500 pounds...that's circa 225kg, either way much more than I need. But different manufacturers I think they are Georgia Pacific?

Cheers again.

Originally Posted by richmond68

Look, I don't want to scare you off, those engineered joists are pretty strong as is the glue bond. But they are used for a specific design load on the joist. That is, the dead load of the structure plus live load of 1.5kn for domestic. I'm more familiar with product from CHH and Tillings, neither provide detail for suspended load. One reason that I'm cautious is that they use LVL for the chords, which can contain filled voids just like CD ply does.

You are adding to the live load, so it would help to know a reasonable estimate of the load and the area it is distributed over. Eg 3.6m long by 0.9 metre wide is 3.24m2, With the brackets you've designed you could easily get a third of a cube of pine onto that at 650kg a cube so that's something like 230kg, plus the weight of the brackets, plus your ladder. Call it 270kg. That's nearly 84kg/m2, which is more than half of your LL. Using 4 brackets fixed across 3 joists gives 12 attachment points at a little over 20kg each, so screw anchor strength isn't a problem.

Annoying (and costly) as it is, it really is something to run past a structural engineer, which I am not. It could be no problem, he or she might suggest distributing the load over more joists, or in the extreme removing the gyprock and adding stiffeners to the joists (they're easy to turn into box beams) or additional support. It all depends on the load.

Thanks Richmond,
Not scared, that's why these forums are great. I would be more worried if I went ahead and then discussed it .

I have 5 brackets planned at circa 625mm centres. The ladder is 25 to 30 kg maximum. The brackets would hold a max of 30 sticks of 90x 45mm @ 3600mm timber if densely stacked and the completely filled which will never happen, so that volume wise is around 0.52 cubes? Is that right - the storage area on each side of the bracket is 0.24m wide by 0.3 high x 2 (for each side of the bracket x say 3.6m lengths. So that is 0.52x 650kg = 338kg + the bracket weights say 20kg + ladder 30kg= 390kg.

Per sqm that would be 390/ 3.24=120kg/sqm. So with 15 attachment points is around 26 kg/per screw.

If I halve that load the lumber load I am at around your numbers or just a bit less.

Whats funny - or not, is I am unsure how or if they blocked out for the panel lift garage door? Pending the response from LP Solidstart I think you may be right re engineers advise. I am just hoping that like TJI that LP have some sort of tried and tested loading that can be applied to the bottom chord. If not plan B is to potentially use the existing steel beams.

Thanks again for your time.

again, I have to stress that the following is not professional engineering advice

Originally Posted by buballodingo

Item 2: I can get those 2 verticals pieces of my bracket to slide up either side of the joist and deal with some sort of fixing in accordance with the manufacturers recommendation. Seen a few suggestions on line about laminating more ply against the OSB to strengthen it as well;

the load capacity of your I-beams is primarily related to the depth of the web and the strength of the glue bond between the flanges and the web. I have no direct experience or knowledge of your beams -- my experience is mostly with 1.5 to 1.8 m deep beams in concrete or steel -- but I would think that stiffening the web by adding additional thicknesses of ply, would not add much if anything to the working strength of the I-beam.

Originally Posted by buballodingo

Item 3: If you look at the photos 1 and 3 you will see the noggins between the joists directly adjacent to the steel beam (in black). There is no way these things will roll. Unless you are talking about something else?

as I mentioned above my experience is mostly with beams up to 1.8 m deep in concrete or steel. I've seen a steel I-beam with a 40 mm thick web buckle under it's own weight. Describing this as the beam "falling over onto its side" is generally more descriptive than talking about shear stresses and the potential for web buckling and hence the desirability of blocking-out the I-beams to form a box like structure.


If you intend going ahead with this idea, please pay for professional engineering advice.

Retired Structural Timber Products Executive.
Caveat - Not Engineering Advice.
Your beams are designed for top loading with the acception of a sheet ceiling. All loads should be transfered to top of beam area. The flanges are little more than fixing points for top and bottom sheeting. The beam strength is in the web. The use of threaded rod droppers run through the flanges, adjacent to the web and continuing down through your timber creation and secured under all with nut and washer may be a solution. This would depend on access to top of joists.

Originally Posted by buballodingo

Thanks Richmond,
Whats funny - or not, is I am unsure how or if they blocked out for the panel lift garage door? Pending the response from LP Solidstart I think you may be right re engineers advise. I am just hoping that like TJI that LP have some sort of tried and tested loading that can be applied to the bottom chord. If not plan B is to potentially use the existing steel beams.

Thanks again for your time.

panel lift doors are usually hung off perforated angle, so each ceiling anchor point spans a couple of joists. Each track is effectively a single span bearer, so when the door is fully open the ceiling anchors each take at most a quarter of the weight of the door, typically that means 25-40kg. It's unlikely that any extra allowance was made for this, just gets treated as live load.

Originally Posted by buballodingo

Hi All,
I am building some overhead storage brackets out of MGP10 90 x 30mm.
Cheers,
buballo

Hi buballo . Could You buy steel and weld it up your self ?

I would think you would be doing it that way if you could and not asking here but in the steel section of the forum.

It would be such a better way of making overhead storage .

I did some over head storage with steel in my old shed . It was just welded 30 x 30 x 3 Square Hollow Section and I made two trusses which were installed onto posts either side of the shed . They were about 1.2 M apart and when they were in place I joined them together across the 1.2 so It was now a boxed sort of truss . It was pretty amazing If I may say so Myself Rigid and very strong and the load was transferred down to the floor. I wouldn't have been dumb enough to try lift a motor out of a car with it but it held all my Tents , camping gear , and a whole lot of stuff out of the way in the unused roof space and was a good way of doing it . Ill show you more if its an option for you .

Rob