Thread: Shed sound insulation progress update

Exposing the timber framing on the right wall

Originally, I thought this would involve just taking down the cement sheets, taking down the timber framing, attaching the sheets on the other side and then putting the framing back in.

However, I didn't consider a few things so it turned out more complicated (and a lot slower) than that:
- all electricity in the garage was going through this wall. So I first had to disconnect and seal off all cables. To make matters worse, this was all done in a very untidy way making things more difficult.
- once I exposed the framing, I realised a lot of it was rotten. Mainly because it wasn't covered on the outside - they had attached some cement sheets at the very top (assuming as far as they could reach), just with some brad nails. But anything below about 1.6m was exposed, and a lot of it destroyed
- putting the framing back in wasn't easy because the wood expanded and didn't fit in the steel construction easily anymore. On top of that I had to drill new holes in the steel posts and all of this took a long time

Here is a profile of the wall. A short sheet on the outside, and lined on the inside:
IMG_20180807_123622.jpg


The wall is right next to the fence, and a lot of it was rotten:
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Fixing the framing:
IMG_20180808_144734.jpg

Putting the sheets back:
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And this is how it ended up:
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Sealing

What I've learned is that with sound insulation, you want to make the space as air-tight as possible, since sound goes through air - if air can get through somewhere, so can the sound.

It's not practical to completely seal a garage, but there were definitely a number of gaps and holes that could be closed. I used cheap acrylic sealer for smaller gaps, and expanding foams for larger ones. Ideally, this should all have been acoustic sealer, but that thing is really expensive and for a poorly constructed (or at least, poorly sealed) object such as this, it would have been very expensive and probably a waste of effort.

I reused the cement sheets so there were some holes:
IMG_20180809_141503.jpg

After sealing:
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Installing insulation

Unfortunately, the framing didn't follow the standard - the spacing was neither 430mm nor 580mm consistently. It varied from 40-65cm. On top of that, it's all 70mm deep, and I wanted to use 90mm insulation (or rather, the brand I was looking at only had that). I was considering completely replacing the framing, but thought it would take too much time and cost too much and so I decided to work around it instead. This meant cutting the insulation a bit more than I normally would, but this only added an additional hour or two to the installation (also, I had help doing this as you can see in the photos). And I needed to squish it into the cavity a bit more. I know this affects the insulation properties, but I think it has a more detrimental effect on thermal insulation than acoustic, which I'm less worried about.

Happy to get help:
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I always like the tidy look after insalling insulation

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This brown part is going to be behind another wall (described in another post), so I just used some leftover ceiling insulation I had from before. Because it was meant for ceiling, it's much thicker so I had to install some support to prevent it from falling out of the wall:
IMG_20180810_161704.jpgIMG_20180810_181831.jpg

Framing the walls and doors

On the wall that was going diagonally the framing was lowered compared to the rest of the garage, and I didn't know how to deal with this in terms of ceiling and making sure everything is sealed, so I created another wall in front of that:

IMG_20180810_105440.jpgIMG_20180811_110856.jpg


For the small roller door, I removed them and in the opening framed a wall which will hold a swinging door. I'm planning to make the door myself:

IMG_20180812_132427.jpgIMG_20180812_132445.jpg

For the bigger roller door, I didn't want to remove them because I wanted to be able to convert this back into garage at some point, and also didn't know where I'd put them, so I just put up a wall in front, and framed another door (that will be swinging) inside:

IMG_20180812_153352.jpgIMG_20180812_173137.jpgIMG_20180812_184555.jpgIMG_20180812_184550.jpgIMG_20180812_184535.jpg

For this wall, there is a bit of stability issue. I bolted all three walls into the concrete floor, and screwed or nailed them in on the sides (small roller door goes into the steel framing, and the other two are attached to sister studs). However, the top of the large 5.5m wall is currently unsupported, and I'm still trying to figure out what's the best way to secure it and prevent it from moving/bending.


Now, the next steps are to line these two walls on the outside, put the insulation in, and then put up the ceiling. That last part will probably be the trickiest as the beams are heavy and I'll need to properly connect and secure everything. Hoping to to most of that this weekend.

EDIT: I think I forgot to take final photos, but the frame for the door in the big wall has triple studs, the photos are from before I put that in.

Going well. Don't worry about the large wall, once it is clad it will stiffen up. Stud walls are a torsion box, the cladding is what gives them rigidity.

Originally Posted by richmond68

Going well. Don't worry about the large wall, once it is clad it will stiffen up. Stud walls are a torsion box, the cladding is what gives them rigidity.

Thanks. I decided not to worry about it for now and went ahead. Cladding it added some rigidity but once I connected everything to ceiling beams it completely stopped moving. I guess that's how that would be in a house too.

Anyway, it's been a long time since the last update. Not because I didn't work on it; I just didn't get a chance to post.

So after the framing and installing insulation, I first put the sheeting on the outside of the newly framed wall and installed insulation in there:

IMG_20180818_174517.jpg

Ceiling beams

Next it was time to put up the beams to hold the ceiling. I marked the positions starting from the new wall along the walls on each side, at every 60cm. I attached them with 125mm batten screws, mainly from below through the top plate of each wall, and in cases where that wasn't possible (i.e. on top of a stud), from the sides.

Midway through, I hoisted two more beams that would go across all the other ones in the end, because I'd have no way of putting them there once all the other ones are in place. This is how it looked like:

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After this, I ran two of these beams across (one wasn't long enough), overlapping and connecting them together.

Then I hung them to the steel structure using shorter timber pieces, and screws on the top (timber to metal) and joist hangers on the bottom. To make sure I'm not making a sagged ceiling from the outset, I first propped up all beams from below to make sure they're level.

Finally, I connected the cross beams to the beams below. This was done using batten screws, at an angle (since both members were 140mm, there was no other way):

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After that I've clad the walls, and finally ceiling. Walls were fairly easy, I just made sure to leave some space between the sheets and the floor for better sealing and in case some water goes through. The only challenge was that the floor in the garage is sloping, so my sheets are not going in a nice straight line along the ceiling. I'll have to put some kind of cornice or similar to seal those gaps and make it look nicer.

Putting up the ceiling was more challenging, mainly because I had to get the sheets up. I rented the panel lifter from Bunnings for 24h, and then pressed to make it in one day. It lasted from 9am to 7pm and the next day everything hurt, but I managed to finish it An additional challenge was the fact that sheets are not exactly the same size. They don't differ much, but enough to not line up perfectly. That would be a bigger problem on a normal interior ceiling than here though, as I'm not going for a perfectly flat, nicely painted ceiling.

Another thing was installing insulation into the ceiling. Since I didn't have access from the roof, I had to put it in essentially after I put up each sheet. I used the "sound blanket", which comes in rolls, but I ended up cutting them to the width of boards because I had no way of just laying the rolls. The trickiest part was near the end when I only had small openings through which to squeeze to put the insulation in.

I don't have much faith in this insulation unfortunately, it's very light and I'm not sure it's going to do much for the sound. I put two layers (each 6cm) but it still doesn't feel like much. It's marketed as being made specifically for sound insulation, but I couldn't find density (kg/m3), and it's definitely light.

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Here is how it looks like after all sheeting has been put up:

IMG_20180901_185218.jpgIMG_20180901_185232.jpg


Now, the remaining tasks are making the doors, and I'm still trying to figure out what's the best way to go about it - I'm thinking frame from the framing pine, with insulation batts inside and mdf on each side. But not sure how to best attach them and which hinges to use, to support the weight (I'm expecting about 50-60kg per wing) and to allow me to seal them properly when closed. And dealing with those corners between walls and ceiling. And electricity. It doesn't end

Lights! Lots and lots of lights

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Lights! Lots and lots of lights

Yeah That's under "electrical", but I haven't thought it through yet. The original garage had 3 light bulbs in the middle of the room, and that was not nearly enough. I'll have to comb the forum for recommendations

Hey I think I used the same mob in Keysborough for my shed insulation.
They were actually very nice, I got confused with the dimensions and packaging and I ended up leaving one whole giant bag of insulation behind. They had no way to contact me so they just kept it there for me for 4 weeks, until I realised I was a bag short and I came back to buy one more and they just told me I didn't need to

I think I ended up getting the same green stuff as you, and same as you I had to squish it in because my studs were also 75mm instead of 90mm. And then I also used 12mm MDF on the inside but I used 18mm cement sheets outside. I also took the time to silicone every gap and crack (not sure if it did anything for sound proofing, I mostly did it for spider proofing LOL). It works great, I can run power tools all night and the neighbours wouldn't even notice. One thing that makes a difference in sound is vibrations, on your big machines and definitely on your air compressor if you have one, put some sort of rubber between it and your floor. I use those dense gym/playground rubber floor tiles (10mm thick), not cheap but they work great.

About the electricals, don't forget to take lots of photos once all the wires are up and before you hang the MDF. Beats having to use the stud/wire finder every time to want to nail something. And don't underestimate how much light you need, I thought I was going overboard in my shed with the 10W LEDs but nope, turns out I could do with even more light.

I would run the electricals externally after cladding in trays and conduit. Way easier and quicker and it can be added to or changed later on with no problems.

I avoided conduits because I have very limited wall space and I needed all of it, but yeah in this case it doesnt seem to be a problem (my shed is a tiny 12sqm)

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Spyro

Hey I think I used the same mob in Keysborough for my shed insulation.
They were actually very nice, I got confused with the dimensions and packaging and I ended up leaving one whole giant bag of insulation behind. They had no way to contact me so they just kept it there for me for 4 weeks, until I realised I was a bag short and I came back to buy one more and they just told me I didn't need to

I think I ended up getting the same green stuff as you, and same as you I had to squish it in because my studs were also 75mm instead of 90mm. And then I also used 12mm MDF on the inside but I used 18mm cement sheets outside. I also took the time to silicone every gap and crack (not sure if it did anything for sound proofing, I mostly did it for spider proofing LOL). It works great, I can run power tools all night and the neighbours wouldn't even notice. One thing that makes a difference in sound is vibrations, on your big machines and definitely on your air compressor if you have one, put some sort of rubber between it and your floor. I use those dense gym/playground rubber floor tiles (10mm thick), not cheap but they work great.

About the electricals, don't forget to take lots of photos once all the wires are up and before you hang the MDF. Beats having to use the stud/wire finder every time to want to nail something. And don't underestimate how much light you need, I thought I was going overboard in my shed with the 10W LEDs but nope, turns out I could do with even more light.

Wow, that seems to really work well for you! I don't dare to expect that kind of effect, at this point it seems like it's just going to be able to muffle the sound a little bit. But it's hard to say since I've got no doors yet.

18mm cement sheets though... that's more like concrete panels I don't think I've seen anything like that.

Definitely planning to plug all holes and cracks, so far I've used acrylic filler which seems to work fine. Not sure about the gap between the walls and ceiling - in some areas it's a bit big (4-5cm, as the sheets were not all the same size and I didn't want to cut them). I hate cornices but I think that's the best option. Alternatively I could use expanding foam but that will be really ugly.


For electrical wiring, I will run them through conduits on walls, don't want additional holes in the wall and also that makes it easier to move around and extend as needed.

Based on research on the forum, I think I'll go with LED tubes for lighting, 20 of them. You can get them cheap enough from eBay, just need to see with the sparky first. I've been looking between these two, the difference being that one requires a standard fluoro mount, and the other is wired directly (which seems preferable to me but I need to check):

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10X-25X-...T/291270683197
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10Pcs-12...4AAOSw401aRJlz


For overall power, I'm thinking 1 lighting circuit, 3 or 4x10A circuits and 2x15A circuits (I don't have any 15A tools yet, but I can see myself going for a 15A table saw, and a 15A dusty). Again I'll need some advice from a sparky first.

Originally Posted by igalic

For overall power, I'm thinking 1 lighting circuit, 3 or 4x10A circuits and 2x15A circuits (I don't have any 15A tools yet, but I can see myself going for a 15A table saw, and a 15A dusty). Again I'll need some advice from a sparky first.

I have the opposite, 2 x 10A circuits and 4 x 15A circuits. Make sure you get double outlet GPO's on every thing including the 15A GPO's. Some sparkies might no like them but they make sense as long as you don't run 2 15A machines at the same time from the same GPO.

I have my DC and welder/plasma cutter on the same 15A GPO. I never run these at the same time as I have independent fume extraction running on a 10A circuit.
The TS and the Bsander are on another GP0
The BSaw and AC are on a 15A GPO - again I turn the AC off when either the TS/Bsaw/Bsander and DC are running
The Compressor is on it's own 15A GPO.

This saves on an awful lot of plugging and unplugging into outlets.

Originally Posted by igalic

Wow, that seems to really work well for you! I don't dare to expect that kind of effect, at this point it seems like it's just going to be able to muffle the sound a little bit. But it's hard to say since I've got no doors yet.

18mm cement sheets though... that's more like concrete panels I don't think I've seen anything like that.

Apologies I got that wrong
I remember I chose double the thickness everybody told me to use, so I picked 9mm instead of 4.5mm. Still pretty thick

A bit of a pain to score and cut but now that it's all done I'm happy it's there.

Originally Posted by BobL

I have the opposite, 2 x 10A circuits and 4 x 15A circuits. Make sure you get double outlet GPO's on every thing including the 15A GPO's. Some sparkies might no like them but they make sense as long as you don't run 2 15A machines at the same time from the same GPO.

I have my DC and welder/plasma cutter on the same 15A GPO. I never run these at the same time as I have independent fume extraction running on a 10A circuit.
The TS and the Bsander are on another GP0
The BSaw and AC are on a 15A GPO - again I turn the AC off when either the TS/Bsaw/Bsander and DC are running
The Compressor is on it's own 15A GPO.

This saves on an awful lot of plugging and unplugging into outlets.

That makes sense. I've just had an electrician come yesterday to take a look and help with advice.

Lighting is going to be 11 x 120cm 18W LED tubes, and there will be 8x double outlets along the walls + 1 hanging outlet for the table saw. It's a small space and I don't foresee having anything other than dusty and table saw on 15A, and that's probably some time off.

Apologies I got that wrong
I remember I chose double the thickness everybody told me to use, so I picked 9mm instead of 4.5mm. Still pretty thick

A bit of a pain to score and cut but now that it's all done I'm happy it's there.

That makes sense Mine is standard villaboard at 6mm. I don't like working with cement sheets both because they are harder to cut and harder to attach. Scoring is fine for big long pieces, but anything thin or small usually ends up in bad cuts. I used circular saw for cutting them but then that takes time to set up each cut and makes a lot of dust. Also when attaching, pre-drilling is harder than through mdf or gyprock, and if there is any tension the screw is much more likely to fall through. Still, they beat the other two when it comes to handling water.

And just a small update for the end:

I made and hung one door. Structural pine frame, with insulation on the inside. I was worried what type of hinges will be able to hold the weight but the ones I chose don't seem to have a problem with it.

However, I didn't take the thickness of the door into account when sizing (they're 94mm thick) and now they're hard to close. I'm planning to use the power planer to shave a couple of mm off each wing. If that doesn't work I'll have to take them off and take a cut on the TS.

Now I'm looking for a handle/level that can be used on doors this thick. All standard sets go only up to 45mm, and I've found longer spindles online that can extend that, but not in Australia. I'll have to call a few of the gate hardware stores to see if they might have it.

Finally, I sealed the top and bottom corners of the garage using expanding foam, today planing to use top-coat over all joints and screws. Then paint, probably next weekend.

Pictures to follow...