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  1. #16
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    You guys have much cheaper MDF than we do. 3/4" (19mm) is over $40 a sheet for 1,244 x 2,464. Because we put a 6 mil poly vapour barrier under the inside sheeting with a gooey black snot called acoustic sealant at every plastic lap and on the studs where the staples go to stop air leaks, I didn't put anything at the joints of the 12mm OSB ($15 a sheet) I used for the shop walls. In your case where you may not use a vapour barrier you can seal the gaps/joints with a flexible paintable caulk. I may do it to mine if I ever get around to painting it just for looks.

    Pete

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  3. #17
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    May 2016
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    Melbourne
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    Quote Originally Posted by igalic View Post
    I know this subject has been beaten to death already on the forum and elsewhere, I've spent days reading up on it

    But each situation is slightly different, and unfortunately there's a lot of misinformation online so I wanted to get some more input - preferably from people who know something about sound engineering or have done it themselves.

    I'll try to ask specific questions to make it easier, any input is appreciated.

    I'm using my 2-port garage as workshop, which is:
    - built on concrete slab
    - steel construction
    - corrugated metal roof (A-shape)
    - some form of decorated cement sheeting on the outside (one side) and inside (!), this is the side right next to the property fence where they couldn't reach the frame from the outside
    - two roller doors, one motorised - 5.4m and 2.5m

    Now, my biggest concern is sound. I'm in a court location, and although the property is not miniature, it's not big either (around 670m2), so plenty of houses around. It's right next to the property border on one side, and so on the neighbour's side 50cm from my wall is their terrace / entertainment area.

    At the moment I don't have a set budget, but I was hoping to keep everything under $3-4k, and I'd be doing most or all of it myself, so that's just materials.

    This is the plan:

    - for the sides where cement sheeting is on the outside, leave it there, and create timber framing and attach it to the steel framing from the inside
    - for the sides where cement sheeting is on the inside, remove it and then again install timber framing, but before attaching it add cement sheeting (blueboard) on the outside
    - for the ceiling, add timber beams (was thinking 4, but need to confirm with a friend who's carpenter), across the garage and supported by vertical joists (is that the name?) attached to the steel construction in the roof
    - fill timber framing with acoustic insulation batts
    - add drywall on top from the inside
    - to deal with roller doors, I'd sacrifice 0.5m on each side of the garage and basically build a new wall in front of each door, with swinging door in it. The idea is to be able to remove those at some point and be left with normal roller doors (i.e. if we sell the house some years down the line)
    - the door would be made out of construction pine, filled with same acoustic insulation batts and with a sheet of plywood on each side. The sizes would be 2.7m x 2.0m for one door, and 2.2m x 2.0m for the other

    Now finally for the questions

    - on the inside, would I get any significant reduction in noise level if I used mdf or plywood instead of drywall? These would both be prohibitively expensive new, but people are often selling them cheap from packing or similar
    - acoustic insulation batts are one of the most expensive items. I found some people on the forum suggesting that doesn't make a difference vs normal insulation (i.e. earthwool or similar). Is that true? Is there something more efficient I could do at the same or lower price? For example, normal insulation batts + 2 layers of drywall on the inside? Do brands matter?
    - how have you all dealt with the roller doors? Should I just remove them and install normal doors in the frame? Is there any better way? If building swinging doors, I'm also a bit concerned about the weight. Would the steel framing be able to support it? How do I check that?
    - In terms of sound insulation, does stud spacing make any difference? I.e. am I getting anything better or worse if using 430mm vs 580mm spacing?
    - to me achieving air-tightness seems hardest. I can put all this together, but I'm sure there will be gaps in many places. How do you deal with that in the easiest way?
    - with the above setup, can I realistically expect any significant noise reduction? Or am I going to be disappointed because it will still be way too loud?

    This all comes out to about $3k, if buying new.

    And a few other things:
    - I've seen resilient channels recommended a lot, but can't find anywhere to buy them, plus people say they're expensive. I've found an interesting alternative here: Soundproof Your Garage Walls (Using My Cleat Method) -- is that something worth doing? It doesn't sound too difficult or laborious, I'd be up for it if it was worth it. The only thing is I then lose the ability to hang anything on the wall - it's way too unstable for that it looks
    -some people have recommended mass-loaded vinyl. It looks good, but it's crazy expensive. It would maybe make sense for a small home recording studio, but for a garage this size it's too much. I think around $200/m2
    - I didn't plan on putting in windows. It seems like that just adds to the complexity of sound insulation, I'll just plan on adding a lot of light
    - I didn't plan on adding ventilation. I will rarely spend more than a few hours in there at a time, and so far ventilation didn't seem an issue (to be fair, it's so badly constructed it could well just be open). When not using machines I can open the door.
    - What I'm trying to achieve is a level of noise that's not disturbing to neighbours. I.e. to be at the level of a lawn mower or lower when I'm using the noisy tools - router, planer, etc. If they're in the house, I'm hoping it wouldn't be more than that kind of buzz from the outside.

    Am I missing anything important? Anything I could do better or easier?


    Appreciate any suggestions!
    Have a look into a product called Green Glue this stuff is amazing.

  4. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Ringwood, VIC
    Posts
    575

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    One thing I was going to mention - be careful using a phone for sound measurements.
    Some phones have a very effective agc (automatic gain control). This means you will always get the same reading no matter what you do to reduce noise.
    For example, my old Samsung s3 was great, but this new S7 is pointless for measurements.



    Russ

  5. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
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    27,756

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    Quote Originally Posted by russ57 View Post
    One thing I was going to mention - be careful using a phone for sound measurements.
    Some phones have a very effective agc (automatic gain control). This means you will always get the same reading no matter what you do to reduce noise.
    For example, my old Samsung s3 was great, but this new S7 is pointless for measurements.
    If the app programmer had half a brain they would have programmed the AGC off.
    There are also sound apps and there are sound apps.
    Generally with an SPL app you get what you pay for

    The sticky on the practical aspects of dust control has a long post about measuring noise from duct collectors and enclosures that may help and it also mentions SPL apps.
    DRAFT: FAQ - Dust Extraction (Practical Aspects)

  6. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Melbourne
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    81

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    Quote Originally Posted by QC Inspector View Post
    You guys have much cheaper MDF than we do. 3/4" (19mm) is over $40 a sheet for 1,244 x 2,464. Because we put a 6 mil poly vapour barrier under the inside sheeting with a gooey black snot called acoustic sealant at every plastic lap and on the studs where the staples go to stop air leaks, I didn't put anything at the joints of the 12mm OSB ($15 a sheet) I used for the shop walls. In your case where you may not use a vapour barrier you can seal the gaps/joints with a flexible paintable caulk. I may do it to mine if I ever get around to painting it just for looks.

    Pete
    Nah, it's not that cheap here either, it's more expensive than for you What I was referring to was second-hand MDF, usually from packaging and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by jms_8087 View Post
    Have a look into a product called Green Glue this stuff is amazing.
    Thanks! I'm aware people are recommending acoustic sealants because they keep permanently flexible, but the issue is usually the price, especially for a larger area like a double garage. Green glue for between sheets would be way too much (>$20/m2, plus you need two layers of whatever you're using), but I might use their sealant for gaps.


    Quote Originally Posted by russ57 View Post
    One thing I was going to mention - be careful using a phone for sound measurements.
    Some phones have a very effective agc (automatic gain control). This means you will always get the same reading no matter what you do to reduce noise.
    For example, my old Samsung s3 was great, but this new S7 is pointless for measurements.

    Russ
    Thanks, will do.


    One of the benefits of using miniorb was no join work was needed but the plaster board was a PITA. Next time I build a shed I would use MDF and put minimal effort into the joins.I'll just run a bead of sealant along the joins and even leave the screws showing. Then if I want to remove a sheet it's dead easy to do. 2.4 x 1.2 m sheets are a reasonable size to handle and even the 1.2 x .6 would be fine, by the time you get cupboards, shelves, ducting and machinery around the place you don't tend to even notice the walls and they all help reduce the noise.
    The 3600x1600x18mm is problematic because the company I found selling it doesn't offer delivery and is only open on weekdays when I can't get other help than my wife, and I thought we'd have trouble loading these sheets into a truck.

    However now I managed to find 2400x1200x12mm sheets for $10 (also seconds), which should be a lot more manageable both for bringing them over and for installation. Unfortunately thinner but I think they'll do.

    For sealant, do you reckon silicone, something like a flexible gap filler (https://www.bunnings.com.au/polyfill...alant_p1230031), acoustic sealant, expanding foam or something else?

  7. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
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    Nsw
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    64
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    I wouldn’t bother going to the expense of an acoustic sealant if it is cost prohibitive. A standard polyurethane sealant like Sikaflex etc make would do the job. Likewise the no more gap type product you noted would be fine behind the sheets before you fix them off, the sikaflex would be better but you will never get a sheet off the wall again if you needed to.
    Select your products and then just work on the principle of keeping everything water/ air tight to prevent sound leakage
    I have done a reasonable amount of soundproofing work for hearing centres and home theatres and you get a good result with the standard more common systems and then you start throwing a lot more $$$ chasing incremental improvements using specialist products like lead vinyl

  8. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Ringwood, VIC
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    If the app programmer had half a brain they would have programmed the AGC off.
    There are also sound apps and there are sound apps.
    Generally with an SPL app you get what you pay for

    ]
    I'm not sure that is possible, it's built into the hardware. There are usually warnings in the notes about this. I've tried a few different apps.
    (the spectrum analyser part is ok though)

    Russ

  9. #23
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    Feb 2006
    Location
    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by russ57 View Post
    I'm not sure that is possible, it's built into the hardware. There are usually warnings in the notes about this. I've tried a few different apps.
    (the spectrum analyser part is ok though)
    That's too bad. Basic spectral analysers just show relative outputs at various frequencies.

    I use the Faber Acoustical App - on an iPhone it's rated good enough to use for OHS measurements.

  10. #24
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    Apr 2017
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    Melbourne
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    Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I've got most of the MDF sheets and getting the rest tomorrow. For the amount I even got a bit of a discount so it turned out great.

    Unfortunately I almost ended up losing them from the ute on my way home, need to learn to tie things better!

    Luckily the same company had some extra sound insulation from another job so I got that really cheap as well - it's new and about half the price. It's the Greenstuf Polyester acoustic blanket at 60mm, I got 120m2. That would be enough to cover the garage but I'm worried it's too light and thinking I should go for normal acoustic batts for the walls, and just use double layer of this in the ceiling.

    Now the last thing I'm unsure about is how to deal with the doors, currently leaning towards simple swinging doors for simplicity and ease of insulation but I'd like to not lose too much opening, and at 5.4m I'm worried the door would be too heavy for the steel posts of the garage. Maybe reduce them to 2.5m so then each side at 1.25 should be ok. Planning to put them behind the existing roller door and just wall them off.

    I'll post progress as I go.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

  11. #25
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by igalic View Post
    Now the last thing I'm unsure about is how to deal with the doors, currently leaning towards simple swinging doors for simplicity and ease of insulation but I'd like to not lose too much opening, and at 5.4m I'm worried the door would be too heavy for the steel posts of the garage. Maybe reduce them to 2.5m so then each side at 1.25 should be ok. Planning to put them behind the existing roller door and just wall them off.
    If you have a level smoothing surface for it to run on you can always put a supporting wheel on the outboard end.

  12. #26
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    Melbourne
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    That would be great but for the big door, the concrete is sloping down towards the road so I don't think I can make it work.

    Would this be a question for a structural engineer? I don't want to bring my whole garage down [emoji3]

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

  13. #27
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    Feb 2006
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    Perth
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    Quote Originally Posted by igalic View Post
    That would be great but for the big door, the concrete is sloping down towards the road so I don't think I can make it work.
    How much of a slope? - what about a jockey wheel that would allow you to adjust for the slope. It could even be removable as you get close to closing and a permanent attached secondary wheel takes up the load.

  14. #28
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    Aug 2007
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    Saskatoon, SK, Canada.
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    How about a roll up door on the outside if allowed. About a grand or so according to the price calculator. Not as good as solid but should help some.

    https://www.ozrollershutters.com.au

    Pete

  15. #29
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    Melbourne
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    How much of a slope? - what about a jockey wheel that would allow you to adjust for the slope. It could even be removable as you get close to closing and a permanent attached secondary wheel takes up the load.
    Hm I'm not sure what you mean. The slope is about 12cm at 2.5m from the door. Wouldn't any kind of wheel either be too short when the door is open, or stuck when the door is closed? I haven't used a jack wheel before, so maybe I'm missing something? Does it automatically adjust height as it rolls?



    This is what it looks like

  16. #30
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    Melbourne
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    Quote Originally Posted by QC Inspector View Post
    How about a roll up door on the outside if allowed. About a grand or so according to the price calculator. Not as good as solid but should help some.

    https://www.ozrollershutters.com.au

    Pete
    Well I've already got roller door, they don't seem to do much.. Do you mean something like roller shutters to cover the roller door? That would probably help somewhat but I'd prefer solid door, especially with all the other effort I'm putting into sound insulation... Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

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