Thread: Workshop Layout Any Ideas Suggestions

Ian its design by committee and far from perfect and yes your right the workflow is fudged.

If you can suggest a layout more suitable I would appreciate it.

I have tried placing the table saw dust extractor bandsaw jointer thicknesser nearer to roller door. But I just cannot make it fit. Lack of imagination. I will keep trying.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

Ian its design by committee and far from perfect and yes your right the workflow is fudged.

If you can suggest a layout more suitable I would appreciate it.

I have tried placing the table saw dust extractor bandsaw jointer thicknesser nearer to roller door. But I just cannot make it fit. Lack of imagination. I will keep trying.

firstly, what do you want to build in that garage?

big stuff like chests of drawers and dining tables from solid timber
big stuff from manufactured boards

little stuff like boxes, wine bottle holders, cutting boards

in between sized stuff like end tables, sofa tables, coffee tables, etc

chairs

Medium size objects in solid wood, while I do work with sheet material I would circular saw a large sheet before table sawing. Object I enjoy making are display cabinets, chairs, the biggest item would be say a writing desk. So 1.5 meters long boards would the biggest pieces.

I love my hand tools but I also love my power tools. I need a space that I can undertake both. With no bias.

Hi TS

My current tool placement (see photos earlier) is the result of 20 years in this workshop. I use power tool and hand tools pretty much equally, although there are times when it appears that the hand tools dominate because that is the part I enjoy most. Power tools break down the work, and hand tools finish it.

The point here is that my workshop has been broken down into sections that work more efficiently when close together:

1. The combination thicknesser/jointer is near the bandsaw as this requires fewest steps to level, resaw and thickness rough sawn timber. The advantage is also that it is possible to site the dusty close to them for the shortest length of hose.

2. The work bench is close to a wall since all my hand tools either are in cabinets above it or on a wall at its rear. Close to hand is vital. Just a step away is the sharpening area (grinders and stones, plus cabinet for storing related stuff).

3. The tablesaw is combined with a router table since they can share the tablesaw fence (I attach a router table fence to the tablesaw fence so that it is easy to adjust and also travels parallel to a mitre gauge. ). This combination is placed more to the centre of the space as it needs more room for ripping, plus there are sliding table rails to tuck out of the way. The tablesaw top is handy as an auxillary table when I clamp parts.

All this is in half of a double garage. When you have little space, it must be efficient. How do you plan your work process?

Regards from Perth

Derek

The owner has given permission for me to install a 20 amp circuit.

I have been getting quotes from electricians and they are all over the place ranging from $250 to $1300. I read that Derek paid $1000 for the same thing in his shed a few years ago. I have a few more electricians coming to quote me but I have time since the machines will not arrive in Australia until late April.

I will do a photoshoot of the unboxing and installation.

I have been looking at my machine choices and one brand was MiniMax, I did a little digging and what I found was rather disturbing. Minimax is brand of the System Capital Management (SCM Group). For all their claims for being Italian. It is just a front for a massive Ukrainian holding company. SCM Group website is very thin on details lots of pretty pictures but no details so I had to go and do a little digging.

The Chief Executive Officer at SCM GROUP S.p.A. is Mr. Oleg N. Popov a Ukrainian - See Bloomberg. Mr Popov boss is Rinat Akhmetov See Bloomberg another Ukrainian and a very rich man with very rich friends in the Ukraine and Russia. Read up on him. People should be aware of were their money goes and what it is ultimately used to support in the broader international and geopolitical context.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

The owner has given permission for me to install a 20 amp circuit.

I have been getting quotes from electricians and they are all over the place ranging from $250 to $1300. I read that Derek paid $1000 for the same thing in his shed a few years ago. I have a few more electricians coming to quote me but I have time since the machines will not arrive in Australia until late April.

It was indeed around $1000 for the power point, about 6 or 7 years ago. But that included 1 x 20 amp, 2 x 15 amp, and 2 x 10 amp as an extra circuit into the garage, which already had 6 x 10 amp plugs (I built the house/garage so added in plenty - so I thought - power points up front).

The Hammer 4400 (bandsaw) needs the 20 amps. The Hammer A3-31 (combo thicknesser-jointer) only needs 15 amps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

The owner has given permission for me to install a 20 amp circuit.

Is that an
1) additional circuit with its own 20A breaker and wiring rated for a total of 20A
OR
2) an upgrading of the existing circuit?
OR
3) an extension of another existing household circuit into the shed. (That sounds like the $250)

And now many extra GPOS etc are you being provided with in each case?
All This could be why you are getting different prices - because they are not all quoting for the same thing.

You also need to find out what the existing circuit is.
If its just an extension of an existing household circuit (most likely) then its limited what you can connect to that. You can run small power tools or a 2HP or less DC off that circuit.

A 20A circuit does not necessarily allow a 15A device to be run off that circuit.
If the 20A circuit is connected to a handful of 10A GPOs you cannot put a 15A GPO on that same circuit.
15A devices need their own circuit and breaker and nothing else can run on that circuit.

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Derek The Hammer machines comes with a short cord and no plug as you know, did your electrician attach a 15amp plug or a 20 amp plug to the Hammer and I assume you run an extension cord to the wall from the Hammer what kind of plugs does your extension cord have?


Did you get a 2.5mm or a 4mm copper cable for the 20amp circuit? Some electrician want to instal 2.5mm and some are saying 6mm.

BobL

Screen Shot 2017-03-28 at 5.31.09 pm.png

Originally Posted by derekcohen

It was indeed around $1000 for the power point, about 6 or 7 years ago. But that included 1 x 20 amp, 2 x 15 amp, and 2 x 10 amp as an extra circuit into the garage, which already had 6 x 10 amp plugs (I built the house/garage so added in plenty - so I thought - power points up front).

That configuration would require at least 4 circuits and breakers to have been installed.
A separate circuit would be needed for each of the 20A and 15A GPOs, and only the 10A GPOs could have been placed on the same circuit.
If this was not done, that installation was not done to code.

In my shed I have 2 breaker boxes
Box 1 has a 1 x10A lighting breaker, and a 1 x 16A breaker for multiple (6?) 10A double GPOs.
Box 2 has 3 x 20A breakers each connected to individual 15A GPOs, 1 x 16A breaker connected to multiple (13?) double 10A GPOs, and a 1 x 10A lightning circuit breaker

Originally Posted by BobL

That configuration would require at least 4 circuits and breakers to have been installed.
A separate circuit would be needed for each of the 20A and 15A GPOs, and only the 10A GPOs could have been placed on the same circuit.
If this was not done, that installation was not done to code.

In my shed I have 2 breaker boxes
Box 1 has a 1 x10A lighting breaker, and a 1 x 16A breaker for multiple (6?) 10A double GPOs.
Box 2 has 3 x 20A breakers each connected to individual 15A GPOs, 1 x 16A breaker connected to multiple (13?) double 10A GPOs, and a 1 x 10A lightning circuit breaker

Hi Bob

As far as I know, it was all done to code by an electrician hired expressibly for the job. It has its own separate circuit. Check it out next time you come around.

This was all done when I purchased the bandsaw. Later, when the thicknesser-planer came to live in the workshop, Dale (on the forum) came around and looked it all over, and ensured that all was working correctly (which it was and is). These two machines are 4 hp each, and the tablesaw (as you know since you swapped out the motor for me) is 3 hp. This uses 15 amps.

Derek The Hammer machines comes with a short cord and no plug as you know, did your electrician attach a 15amp plug or a 20 amp plug to the Hammer and I assume you run an extension cord to the wall from the Hammer what kind of plugs does your extension cord have?


Did you get a 2.5mm or a 4mm copper cable for the 20amp circuit? Some electrician want to instal 2.5mm and some are saying 6mm.

TS, all is separate. The 20 amp has its own circuit. The 15 amp plugs have their circuit. Size of wiring? No idea mate - I just use it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by BobL

That configuration would require at least 4 circuits and breakers to have been installed.
A separate circuit would be needed for each of the 20A and 15A GPOs, and only the 10A GPOs could have been placed on the same circuit.
If this was not done, that installation was not done to code.

That's what the vast majority of sparkies will tell you but it's not correct. I think TAFE teaches this because it's easy and conservative, but it's not a correct application of AS3000.

What you're referring to regarding maximum number of points on one circuit presumably comes from Table C8 'Guidance on the loading of points per final subcircuit'. This table is part of Appendix C which is an Informative appendix. The Preface specifically states that "an 'informative' appendix is only for information and guidance" - so the guidelines given in Table C8 are not a Code requirement, though they are often taken as such.

Under Part II of the Code (the deemed-to-comply section) a sparky can choose to determine maximum demand by calculation, assessment, measurement or limitation. Assessment and measurement methods aren't relevant to this discussion so I'll ignore them. Calculation refers to the methodology given in Appendix C, while the limitation method refers to maximum demand of a circuit being limited by the rating of its upstream circuit breaker.

Thus using the limitation method, it is entirely 'to code' to use the circuit breaker to limit maximum demand on a circuit rather than following the guidelines of Table C8. That means that so long as the breaker is appropriately sized to the wiring installation it is protecting, any number and combination of points can be installed (with the restriction that the highest amperage point[s] should not exceed the rated circuit capacity).

Assuming then that you have a wiring installation rated to 20A per Code requirements and protected by a 20A circuit breaker, you can legally hang as many 10A, 15A and 20A points off it as you wish.

The reason that this isn't commonly done is of course nuisance tripping. For a domestic house scenario, the householder should not be expected to tally up how much current they're drawing from a circuit at any one time before switching on another appliance. That would be ridiculous, and that's where Table C8 provides invaluable guidance as to how many points you can reasonably put on a given circuit without nuisance overload tripping.

For a shed used by a single person though where you have multiple large current draw machines in a small area that aren't used at the same time, nuisance tripping isn't such an issue. As such if you tell your sparky that you want him to run a single 20A circuit around your shed feeding 3x 20A points, 3x 15A points and 10x 10A points with current limited by the breaker, then he is permitted to do so by the Code per the limitation method. You would simply have to accept that nuisance tripping will likely occur if you decide to run your table saw, air compressor and jointer thicknesser all at the same time of that one circuit.

---

Note that I'm not encouraging people to undersize wiring installations; just noting what is permissible under the Code. A reasonable application for example is my shed where I'll have (amongst other circuits) a 16A circuit with 4x 15A outlets - 2x fixed outlets for the milling machine and lathe plus 2x ceiling pendants over the work areas for welding and plasma cutting. As it's impractical for me to use more than one of those machines at a time, that is a perfectly functional and Code compliant circuit satisfying maximum demand by limitation.

Sorry for the length of this post ... would have put it in [spoiler] tags if they were available.

Originally Posted by Moph

Note that I'm not encouraging people to undersize wiring installations; just noting what is permissible under the Code. A reasonable application for example is my shed where I'll have (amongst other circuits) a 16A circuit with 4x 15A outlets - 2x fixed outlets for the milling machine and lathe plus 2x ceiling pendants over the work areas for welding and plasma cutting. As it's impractical for me to use more than one of those machines at a time, that is a perfectly functional and Code compliant circuit satisfying maximum demand by limitation.

Thanks for this info and it is in indeed worth knowing and going to save some folks a lot of headaches provided of course they can talk their sparky into doing this.

I got three sparkies to quote to wire my shed and every one was said that every 15A GPO had to have its own circuit
I was going to end up with a stupid number of 15A circuits so I resigned myself to fewer circuits and doing a lot of plugging and unplugging.
However one sparky did say I could have double 15A GPOs as long as I didn't run both machines connected to that GPO at the same time!
I guess that is consistent with what you are saying.
I then saw double 15A GPOs for sale in Masters and changed an existing 15A GPO to a double.

So I have my DC, and my welder/plasma plugged into one double 15A GPO because I never run these together.
The sander and the TS are on another double 15A GPO.
The BS is on another
The compressor is on its own 15A GPO and its own circuit, and that makes sense because it might kick in automatically at any time.
I also installed current/Voltmeters on some of my machines which is very instructive and given they are so cheap I wonder these are not used more often.

I wonder how much of this "15A devices must be on one circuit" is due to the sparky wishing to make an extra bob or two?

Originally Posted by BobL

I wonder how much of this "15A devices must be on one circuit" is due to the sparky wishing to make an extra bob or two?

I honestly don't think it is that. I kind of wish it was because the alternative is that sparkies simply don't understand AS3000, which I fear is the true reason. I discussed this with a mate while he was at TAFE and he questioned his lecturer who couldn't fault my logic, falling back on the argument that the appendices might be informative but they provide a 'safe and conservative' way of designing an installation.

My view on that is that I'm forced to pay a sparky for (supposed) expertise in the Wiring Rules, and they should therefore be able to design and install a system that best suits my needs - not what is easy for them. Sheds are where the nonsensical nature of blindly following the Appendices becomes obvious, because running a separate circuit for every 15A point becomes expensive pretty quickly and likely ends up limiting your installation, and is simply not logical when you have multiple 15A machines but will only ever run one of those machines per circuit at a time.

Convincing a sparky of this is the challenge though.

FYI this is the part of Table C8 (informative) that the sparkies are relying on. Towards the bottom, for 2.5mm cable with a 16A breaker the table requires you to consider a 15A outlet as contributing 15A load when calculating maximum demand - so the sparky concludes that 1x 15A outlet is all you're allowed on a 16A circuit.



(apologies thumbsucker for the thread derail)