Thread: Blacksmith Fact or Fiction

Originally Posted by Dibby

I am a lover of both wood & metal as each has merit in their individual applications, both compliment each other according to the creator's perspective, art is in the eye of the beholder & science plays an equal part in forming blacksmith art, therein lies the mistique.
I have just stumbled onto this site via google, searching specifically for blacksmithing, really enjoyed reading this forum so I joined.
Very interesting & thoughtful comments on how best explain their theories.
I was just wondering if any of the original posters were still around & if so, have they got any further knowledge on this subject.

I'm still here, but I'm just a wanna be black smith and know enough about materials science to be dangerous

Anyway - first things first - welcome aboard!

Apart from my knowledge of materials I have two other rather loose links to metal working.

My Grandfather was a successful blacksmith and farrier. He died when I was two, but from what I can gather he didn't have what most people would call an "artistic bone" in his body. He could make and fix all manner of stuff but looking at the few products that survive him he was more of a "mr practical" and "mr economy".

My other link is, I like making tools. I would love to have room for a forge and mix and cast my own alloys but I have to satisify myself with scavenging and heat treating metal pieces. Some people think what I end up making is artistic but there must still be a large dose of my grandfather in me because I usually do things on the cheap and most of the time function dominates looks. What happens though is often the products that function the best end up looking the best!

I would imagine there are a number of the previous poster still here.
Do you have any specific questions?

If you are interested in blacksmithing then
iforgeiron.com
is one of the best online resources I know of.

ron

G'day Bob & Ron,

1st of all thanks for the welcome & the reply Bob.
Thanks also for the info Ron.
I have a million & one questions to ask, but alot more reading will hopefully satisfy the curiosity, but I shall bounce off you fellas when I'm stumped.
My grand dad was a seafairer as was my dad, I certainly don't follow in their footsteps, I'd only be good for fish burley, I'm a shocker.
I have always had an interest in whittling timber & twisting metal, so I thought it was time to act out these urges & see what happens.
So far so good, each little project increases the interest to move into the next phase, like..... finding out where I went wrong.
Its all good, the frustrations of failure is taken away in knowing whats hiding in the fridge, who ever invented beer should have a knighthood, maybe it was a blacksmith.........

With any hand process you get a wide variation of quality and cosistancy.
My father was a master swordsman member of the Senior guild of masters in England and ran a fencing school. He told me many years ago there is good hand forged blades and bad ones depending on who the sword maker was. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Crean
What modern tool steels have done is bring a more predictable quality and consistancy to a finnished product with a predictable outcome from heat treating processes . Even though in some cases the best blades may be some of the old ones many were poor and had faults and inclusions .

Originally Posted by Dibby

G'day Bob & Ron,

1st of all thanks for the welcome & the reply Bob.
Thanks also for the info Ron.
I have a million & one questions to ask, but alot more reading will hopefully satisfy the curiosity, but I shall bounce off you fellas when I'm stumped.
My grand dad was a seafairer as was my dad, I certainly don't follow in their footsteps, I'd only be good for fish burley, I'm a shocker.
I have always had an interest in whittling timber & twisting metal, so I thought it was time to act out these urges & see what happens.
So far so good, each little project increases the interest to move into the next phase, like..... finding out where I went wrong.
Its all good, the frustrations of failure is taken away in knowing whats hiding in the fridge, who ever invented beer should have a knighthood, maybe it was a blacksmith.........

My grandad (mothers side) was a seaman also Captain Edward Tupper he was the founder of the seamans "union " . You can read about him in a book called " The Seamans Torch "
He survived assasination attempts by the IRA and victimisation by large shipping companies and goverment but he won in the end. A lot of lies are told about my grandfather that he started strikes and such but that is rubbish he actually tried to stop some of the strikes that were infact started by the big ship building companies so they could bring in cheap Chinese labour . My mother told me that when I was a small child. He was a brave and good man and only wanted fair treatment for sailors at sea .

Originally Posted by Dibby

. . . . . who ever invented beer should have a knighthood, maybe it was a blacksmith.........

Having read some histories of beer making there is a theory that beer making has prehistoric roots when apparently women used to crush and steep grains in water to soften them prior to cooking. Eventually they discovered that the liquid used to steep the grains had an interesting effect on them . . . . .

See, it's all a woman's fault!

Hello All,
Based on my experience with steels used at foundaries today.

The old tool steels were forged to achieve specific grain structure in the steels to give the desired strengths & hardness. Same strength steels today, do not go through the same process.

Over time, with the invent of new manufacturing processes, tool steel making by the old method was too slow and costly. Therefore, foundaries started playing around with the carbon content, & other alloy contents to come up with tool steels that were cheaper and quicker to make. And most of all, they could be mass produced. Alas, more profit!

All steels are tested to determine if the correct properties are present at certain depths from the surface. This is a requirement for the designation of all steels to comply with the relevant Australian Standard.
This is where the problem begins....
For example, old analysis would be at a depth of 30mm.
Today, the same test would be 15mm.

To achieve the correct properties, at applicable depth, the old tooling steels had to
be hot forged to achieve the same properties as tool steels of today, which are mostly hot rolled. Some are still forged, but not as much forging as previously required in the old days.

This is why some of the older steels will hold an edge longer.

As a reference,
Some of the Australian Standards for most commonly used steels are.....

AS 1594-2002 Hot Rolled Steel Flat Products
AS 3597-2008 Structural & Pressure Vessel Steel - Quenched & Tempered Plate
AS 3679.1-1996 Structural Steel - Hot Rolled Bars & Sections
AS 1442-2007 Carbon Steels & Carbon-Manganese Steels - Hot Rolled Bars
AS 1443-2004 Carbon and Carbon-Magenese Steel - Cold Finished Bars

This is based only on my own experience and knowledge of the industry.

Glenn.

Originally Posted by gmack

Hello All,
Based on my experience with steels used at foundaries today.

The old tool steels were forged to achieve specific grain structure in the steels to give the desired strengths & hardness. Same strength steels today, do not go through the same process.

Over time, with the invent of new manufacturing processes, tool steel making by the old method was too slow and costly. Therefore, foundaries started playing around with the carbon content, & other alloy contents to come up with tool steels that were cheaper and quicker to make. And most of all, they could be mass produced. Alas, more profit!

All steels are tested to determine if the correct properties are present at certain depths from the surface. This is a requirement for the designation of all steels to comply with the relevant Australian Standard.
This is where the problem begins....
For example, old analysis would be at a depth of 30mm.
Today, the same test would be 15mm.

To achieve the correct properties, at applicable depth, the old tooling steels had to
be hot forged to achieve the same properties as tool steels of today, which are mostly hot rolled. Some are still forged, but not as much forging as previously required in the old days.

This is why some of the older steels will hold an edge longer.

As a reference,
Some of the Australian Standards for most commonly used steels are.....

AS 1594-2002 Hot Rolled Steel Flat Products
AS 3597-2008 Structural & Pressure Vessel Steel - Quenched & Tempered Plate
AS 3679.1-1996 Structural Steel - Hot Rolled Bars & Sections
AS 1442-2007 Carbon Steels & Carbon-Manganese Steels - Hot Rolled Bars
AS 1443-2004 Carbon and Carbon-Magenese Steel - Cold Finished Bars

This is based only on my own experience and knowledge of the industry.

Glenn.

I would agree with that , everything is driven by the need for profit and mass production.

See, it's all a woman's fault! [/QUOTE]


HaHa I'm going to duck & weave this one for fear of reprisals.

Originally Posted by Retromilling

My grandad (mothers side) was a seaman also Captain Edward Tupper he was the founder of the seamans "union " . You can read about him in a book called " The Seamans Torch "
He survived assasination attempts by the IRA and victimisation by large shipping companies and goverment but he won in the end. A lot of lies are told about my grandfather that he started strikes and such but that is rubbish he actually tried to stop some of the strikes that were infact started by the big ship building companies so they could bring in cheap Chinese labour . My mother told me that when I was a small child. He was a brave and good man and only wanted fair treatment for sailors at sea .

You have quite an interesting history, I will look that book up.
My grandfather was captain of the ship "Hesperus" for 20 years out of Oban,
you can also google "Hesperus Oban Captain Budge" if you are interested.

All steels are tested to determine if the correct properties are present at certain depths from the surface. This is a requirement for the designation of all steels to comply with the relevant Australian Standard.
This is where the problem begins....
For example, old analysis would be at a depth of 30mm.
Today, the same test would be 15mm.


G'day Glen,

Thanks for that insight, could you also explain the method of testing.

Cheers mate

Hello Dibby,

I have very limited knowledge in the material testing department, as this is generally done by metallurgist. I learnt the basics only.
The testing process is carried out on machines designed specifically for this purpose.
BobL could possibly shed some light on this area for us, as most universities have these machines. Just depends on whether BobL has been exposed to this area of engineering.

To really understand whats required, you need to read some of the Australian Standards that are relevant in testing a materials property, such as....

AS:1391 1991 Tensile Testing
AS:1544.2 Impact Testing
AS:1816.1 Hardness Testing

Sorry I can't offer any other help on the testing process.
.
Regards for now

Glenn

Originally Posted by gmack

Hello Dibby,

I have very limited knowledge in the material testing department, as this is generally done by metallurgist. I learnt the basics only.
The testing process is carried out on machines designed specifically for this purpose.
BobL could possibly shed some light on this area for us, as most universities have these machines. Just depends on whether BobL has been exposed to this area of engineering.

To really understand whats required, you need to read some of the Australian Standards that are relevant in testing a materials property, such as....

AS:1391 1991 Tensile Testing
AS:1544.2 Impact Testing
AS:1816.1 Hardness Testing

Sorry I can't offer any other help on the testing process.
.
Regards for now

Glenn

Hey mate no probs, the reason I asked was I was only reading a little about the "Rockwell Scale" just the other day & was wondering if this would be the same technique used, when you mentioned various depths of the material being tested made me wonder about what other techniques are available to achieve this, but all is good, thanks for your reply.
Cheers

Originally Posted by Dibby

You have quite an interesting history, I will look that book up.
My grandfather was captain of the ship "Hesperus" for 20 years out of Oban,
you can also google "Hesperus Oban Captain Budge" if you are interested.

I seem to remember a saying my mother used " the wreck of the Hesperus " I always thought it was a poem .
Yes I will look that up as I am interested in history .
Thanks for that.
I have had a cursory read and it is possible that our Grandfathers knew eachother as my grandfather being an official in the seamans union would have known many sea captains around that time if I have my years right .
Also the Rockwell scale is only just under the surface test and the depth that it penertrates is the way they judge the hardness .
It can't tell you anything more than surface hardness as far as I know.