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  1. #1
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    Default Bandsaw choices S400P, N4400 or FB510

    Guys I'd appreciate some feedback on bandsaws from some owners and people who have to pay Australian prices for machinery, I've just moved from NZ and it is one of a few purchases I've been saving up!

    I do this as a hobby, but in the past I've made the mistake of buying machines lacking capability and/or quality and it always ends up more expensive. I haven't had a bandsaw before, but I hope my typical workflow with a bandsaw will be something like making a set of outdoor chairs: Buy a pack of 100 x 50, lets say iron bark, dock to length on the kapex, S4S on a jet combo jointer/planer, resaw to 100 x 20 on the bandsaw with a 25mm? carbide? resaw blade, rip with the resaw blade where necessary (as table saw is pretty rubbish at the moment), change the blade on the bandsaw to a size suitable for curves 10mm? 15mm? and cut long and short curves from templates, drum sand and then assemble.

    From this imagined workflow I think I need: Single Phase as I rent and I'm happy to pay for 15 amp circuits but not 3ph. Capability to tension and run at least a 1" resaw blade and down to 1/4" fine curve cutting blade. Capacity to resaw ideally 310mm, but mostly in the range of 100-250mm, lengths up to 2.5m. Speed to change from large resaw to small blade with very little effort as I'm not buying a second bandsaw. Good dust collection using a 3hp extractor with cyclone. The engineer in me demands accuracy from my machines and setup problems take the enjoyment out of my stress relieving hobby.

    I've narrowed it down to the N4400 and FB510 from Felder and S400P from iwoodlike (Gabbets).

    N4400 ~$3,000?
    + Cheapest. Well liked by a number of forum members. Extension tables (alloy)
    - Fiddly adjustment reported of: blade tracking, drift, guide holder, mitre guage, table angle. Single poor dust extraction port. Limited resaw height.
    ? Capability to reliably tension 1" carbide resaw blades on current generation

    S400P $3,900
    + Very solidly built, very well liked by the americans, adjustment, blade changing speed and ease.
    - 400mm wheels, however people seem to run 1" carbide resaw blades on them regularly?, No extension table system. Cannot get to melbourne to have a look.
    ? Dust collection

    FB 510 ~$4,200?
    + biggest wheel diameter, cast extension tables available, twin dust extraction ports
    - Most expensive
    ? Does this saw suffer the same fiddly adjustment problems as the N4400?

    I haven't confirmed prices or availability.

    Thanks in advance for your opinions.

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    Auckland, New Zealand
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin_Turner View Post
    Guys I'd appreciate some feedback on bandsaws from some owners and people who have to pay Australian prices for machinery, I've just moved from NZ and it is one of a few purchases I've been saving up!

    I do this as a hobby, but in the past I've made the mistake of buying machines lacking capability and/or quality and it always ends up more expensive. I haven't had a bandsaw before, but I hope my typical workflow with a bandsaw will be something like making a set of outdoor chairs: Buy a pack of 100 x 50, lets say iron bark, dock to length on the kapex, S4S on a jet combo jointer/planer, resaw to 100 x 20 on the bandsaw with a 25mm? carbide? resaw blade, rip with the resaw blade where necessary (as table saw is pretty rubbish at the moment), change the blade on the bandsaw to a size suitable for curves 10mm? 15mm? and cut long and short curves from templates, drum sand and then assemble.

    From this imagined workflow I think I need: Single Phase as I rent and I'm happy to pay for 15 amp circuits but not 3ph. Capability to tension and run at least a 1" resaw blade and down to 1/4" fine curve cutting blade. Capacity to resaw ideally 310mm, but mostly in the range of 100-250mm, lengths up to 2.5m. Speed to change from large resaw to small blade with very little effort as I'm not buying a second bandsaw. Good dust collection using a 3hp extractor with cyclone. The engineer in me demands accuracy from my machines and setup problems take the enjoyment out of my stress relieving hobby.

    I've narrowed it down to the N4400 and FB510 from Felder and S400P from iwoodlike (Gabbets).

    N4400 ~$3,000?
    + Cheapest. Well liked by a number of forum members. Extension tables (alloy)
    - Fiddly adjustment reported of: blade tracking, drift, guide holder, mitre guage, table angle. Single poor dust extraction port. Limited resaw height.
    ? Capability to reliably tension 1" carbide resaw blades on current generation

    S400P $3,900
    + Very solidly built, very well liked by the americans, adjustment, blade changing speed and ease.
    - 400mm wheels, however people seem to run 1" carbide resaw blades on them regularly?, No extension table system. Cannot get to melbourne to have a look.
    ? Dust collection

    FB 510 ~$4,200?
    + biggest wheel diameter, cast extension tables available, twin dust extraction ports
    - Most expensive
    ? Does this saw suffer the same fiddly adjustment problems as the N4400?

    I haven't confirmed prices or availability.

    Thanks in advance for your opinions.
    Hi Austin
    Before I bought my Minimax s400p, I was considering between Minimax s45n or Hammer n4400, I was fortunate enough to see both machines in their display room( being in NZ these machines aren't always available for view )

    I endup with Mjnimax S400P because the agent fro SCM/Minimax were pulling out of nz, long story short basically I paid the price of S45N and got a S400P.

    Back then I was also given another option of Griggio's bandsaw. Made by ACM, ( think Felder is made by ACM as well) but not heavily discounted as the S400P.

    I didn't consider N4400 not only because I received a free upgrade but also because the Minimax has slightly better workmanship, and I like the paint job on the Minimax, I didnt like the grey/red combination on the N4400, I have not considered FB series at all because:
    1. There is a premium attached to the Felder, and its quality probably on par with Minimax, besides, I've already received a free upgrade from the Minimax people in NZ, if the Felder agent gave me a free upgrade from Hammer N4400 to FB510 I would have bought the FB510.

    2. Long waiting time, for me the S400P is immediate delivery, for the FB the agent will need to check with Australia if there is no stock then will be 2 months wait.

    From the information I've read up to on the sawmillcreek and other woodwork forum about Felder and Minimax badsaw, it seems the FB series are more of a professional hobbist saw where Minimax is for production, I am sure this can be said otherway round, they are both very good saw.

  4. #3
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert View Post
    Hi Austin
    Before I bought my Minimax s400p, I was considering between Minimax s45n or Hammer n4400, I was fortunate enough to see both machines in their display room( being in NZ these machines aren't always available for view )

    I endup with Mjnimax S400P because the agent fro SCM/Minimax were pulling out of nz, long story short basically I paid the price of S45N and got a S400P.

    Back then I was also given another option of Griggio's bandsaw. Made by ACM, ( think Felder is made by ACM as well) but not heavily discounted as the S400P.

    I didn't consider N4400 not only because I received a free upgrade but also because the Minimax has slightly better workmanship, and I like the paint job on the Minimax, I didnt like the grey/red combination on the N4400, I have not considered FB series at all because:
    1. There is a premium attached to the Felder, and its quality probably on par with Minimax, besides, I've already received a free upgrade from the Minimax people in NZ, if the Felder agent gave me a free upgrade from Hammer N4400 to FB510 I would have bought the FB510.

    2. Long waiting time, for me the S400P is immediate delivery, for the FB the agent will need to check with Australia if there is no stock then will be 2 months wait.

    From the information I've read up to on the sawmillcreek and other woodwork forum about Felder and Minimax badsaw, it seems the FB series are more of a professional hobbist saw where Minimax is for production, I am sure this can be said otherway round, they are both very good saw.
    Thanks Albert,

    I was pretty mad when I read your comment about that on the other thread, I could have got a bargin from gabbets NZ and chucked it in the container when I moved over last month! Hope the business is still going well, if you have a website I'm keen to see what you make, particularly as we both seem to look at similar equipment (your first enquiries here about panel saws etc)...though you are now firmly in another league with your twin head omya saw!!!

    Felder pricing has come down from a year ago, FB510 is now the same list price as the S400P which is making it look more attractive. Felder recommend a 30mm-35mm stellite resaw blade from henry bros for it.

    Cheers,

    Austin

  5. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin_Turner View Post
    Thanks Albert,

    I was pretty mad when I read your comment about that on the other thread, I could have got a bargin from gabbets NZ and chucked it in the container when I moved over last month! Hope the business is still going well, if you have a website I'm keen to see what you make, particularly as we both seem to look at similar equipment (your first enquiries here about panel saws etc)...though you are now firmly in another league with your twin head omya saw!!!

    Felder pricing has come down from a year ago, FB510 is now the same list price as the S400P which is making it look more attractive. Felder recommend a 30mm-35mm stellite resaw blade from henry bros for it.

    Cheers,

    Austin
    Yes Gabbett had a S500P they were keen to get rid off as well, i think i did post this info here. I almost bought a 1100mm wide belt sander and a TEN220 tenoner from them for $56k. they are $76k normally.

    I have considered setting up a website for my woodwork business, but to date i have been too busy making the woodwork/sales/buying and setup the machines, i have to tell my client to come back in October if they want to order things from me. i may have under charged thats why i am so busy....?

    i had a technician came through today to give the Omga an once over, I also bought myself the modular ductings required to hookup from the most suitable extraction end cap to the dual saw (another small fortune gone) tomorrow my tennoner will arrive then its the setting up and the ducting..... its endless.

  6. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert View Post
    Yes Gabbett had a S500P they were keen to get rid off as well, i think i did post this info here. I almost bought a 1100mm wide belt sander and a TEN220 tenoner from them for $56k. they are $76k normally.

    I have considered setting up a website for my woodwork business, but to date i have been too busy making the woodwork/sales/buying and setup the machines, i have to tell my client to come back in October if they want to order things from me. i may have under charged thats why i am so busy....?

    i had a technician came through today to give the Omga an once over, I also bought myself the modular ductings required to hookup from the most suitable extraction end cap to the dual saw (another small fortune gone) tomorrow my tennoner will arrive then its the setting up and the ducting..... its endless.
    Arrrgghhh damn it! that would have been nice...

    Fair enough, so what sort of products do you make and how do you sell them? I've always been interested in how practical it is to do that as a bit of side work to a day job to offset some of the tool costs!

    Dropping 56k would have cleaned up their stock in a hurry.

    Regarding the bandsaw, felder has stock of a single phase FB510 in sydney, it'll be tempting if they can do a bit with the price including extension tables and wheels.

  7. #6
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    Default N4400

    Austin,

    I have an N4400.

    First and only bandsaw so nothing to compare it against.

    Negatives:
    • dust port is marketed as 5inch, but is smaller and in fact is only a short fitted 5inch connector attached to a 4inch hole! I've queried this with Hammer and received silence so makes me wonder about their service. Check out the following link for more details.
    • blade tracking slightly fiddly, especially when trying to get blade aligned on both wheels, the manual does not give instructions how to adjust the bottom wheel (check image in first post in above link).
    • Abysmal miter gauge, I'd recommend against buying one, thankfully mine came for "free".
    • Does not include a blade with purchase.


    Positives:

    • Plenty of grunt, has never struggled although admittedly I've never thrown any "serious" bits of wood at it.
    • I've found it fairly easy to adjust, generally (minus blade alignment on wheels).
    • Well made and heavy.


    While blade width might be an issue it's not for me. The manual says the max blade width allowed is 20mm. I have a wood slicer 3/4inch blade which cuts very cleanly, ripping and cross cutting.

    Generally I've been fairly happy with the saw. In hindsight though I'd probably have considered another, mostly on principle (first negative above).

    Hope that helps.

    Gareth
    Annular Grooved Nails....Ribbed for the Woods Pleasure?

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin_Turner View Post
    Arrrgghhh damn it! that would have been nice...

    Fair enough, so what sort of products do you make and how do you sell them? I've always been interested in how practical it is to do that as a bit of side work to a day job to offset some of the tool costs!

    Dropping 56k would have cleaned up their stock in a hurry.

    Regarding the bandsaw, felder has stock of a single phase FB510 in sydney, it'll be tempting if they can do a bit with the price including extension tables and wheels.
    all I can say is you need to find a market for your product and once you've found it then from there onwards its just constantly upgrading the machines, tools, improving the design to make it more profitable (spend less time) or more appealing to the potential customers, I wouldn't have bought all the tools/machines if I didn't have that market/requirement, I started with a Makita "weekend warrior" mitre saw and thought that was more than what I need at the time.

    if money allows i will buy the Felder? but all the accessories require extra $$$, typical Felder.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarethR View Post
    Austin,



    • dust port is marketed as 5inch, but is smaller and in fact is only a short fitted 5inch connector attached to a 4inch hole! I've queried this with Hammer and received silence so makes me wonder about their service. Check out the following link for more details.
    • blade tracking slightly fiddly, especially when trying to get blade aligned on both wheels, the manual does not give instructions how to adjust the bottom wheel (check image in first post in above link).


    Gareth
    Thanks Gareth,

    Dust extraction on the 4400 seems a bit ugly from the link you posted, particularly by not having beneath the table extraction!

    Appreciate the heads up.

    Austin

  10. #9
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert View Post
    all I can say is you need to find a market for your product and once you've found it then from there onwards its just constantly upgrading the machines, tools, improving the design to make it more profitable (spend less time) or more appealing to the potential customers, I wouldn't have bought all the tools/machines if I didn't have that market/requirement, I started with a Makita "weekend warrior" mitre saw and thought that was more than what I need at the time.

    if money allows i will buy the Felder? but all the accessories require extra $$$, typical Felder.
    I see your logic, building one or a handful of things for which you will find a suitable number of customers, which you can make quickly and to a high standard is a reasonable 'side line' approach. Trying to build a bit of everything leads you to spend to much time designing and prototyping. Haha, I started with a makita contractors table saw 3 years ago and now I hate the thing!

    Regarding bandsaws, I think now its coming down to the usefulness of the table extensions for the felder and the ability to run larger blades on the S400. Do you buy your timber in packs by the cu.m and then resaw on your bandsaw or are you buying enough that you can buy packs of each size you require?

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin_Turner View Post
    I see your logic, building one or a handful of things for which you will find a suitable number of customers, which you can make quickly and to a high standard is a reasonable 'side line' approach. Trying to build a bit of everything leads you to spend to much time designing and prototyping. Haha, I started with a makita contractors table saw 3 years ago and now I hate the thing!

    Regarding bandsaws, I think now its coming down to the usefulness of the table extensions for the felder and the ability to run larger blades on the S400. Do you buy your timber in packs by the cu.m and then resaw on your bandsaw or are you buying enough that you can buy packs of each size you require?
    I haven't used my bandsaw to resaw, only used couple of times for ripping. bought it for a new product that I will require resaw but I have been too busy with the product that does not require resaw - most of my timber come in sizes I don't need to resaw, therefore no need to resaw and thicknessing. I know I will need it oneday and I got then at a good price so it's ok.

    I buy my timber in packs, each pack could be anything between 1cube m to 3cube m. Sometimes I buy multiple packs. It depends on what the saw mill has. You can get a really good deal if you buy regular from a timber mill. One of my lounge is now full of timber and racks. not a good thing as I tends to store timber I don't need.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert View Post
    One of my lounge is now full of timber and racks.
    I bet you're popular!!!

    Thanks for all your help, I'll see you in another thread shortly no doubt. And thanks for mentioning sawmill creek, there are a few good threads on the FB510 there.

  13. #12
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    Default Deal Done

    I got the FB510 ex-stock for a great price delivered with wheel kit. Thanks for your advice Albert, as you say, don't be afraid to ask for a good deal if you are serious and ready to buy (not just window shopping).

    S500P is a great saw, undoubtedly better than the FB510 (about the same as an FB540 they had there I reckon), but the price was considerably higher and I wouldn't want to go back to the 400 after looking at the 500!

  14. #13
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    Default Looking Forward to Your Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin_Turner View Post
    I got the FB510 ex-stock for a great price delivered with wheel kit.
    Interesting choice, some similar looking designs to the Hammer N4400 so I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of the saw.

    GR
    Annular Grooved Nails....Ribbed for the Woods Pleasure?

  15. #14
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GarethR View Post
    Interesting choice, some similar looking designs to the Hammer N4400 so I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of the saw.

    GR
    Yep, I will report back in a couple of weeks Gareth

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin_Turner View Post
    I got the FB510 ex-stock for a great price delivered with wheel kit. Thanks for your advice Albert, as you say, don't be afraid to ask for a good deal if you are serious and ready to buy (not just window shopping).

    S500P is a great saw, undoubtedly better than the FB510 (about the same as an FB540 they had there I reckon), but the price was considerably higher and I wouldn't want to go back to the 400 after looking at the 500!
    thats great! I am sure FB510 will serve you well! These woodworking machines are hard to sell, who buys a band saw everyday? a local machinery dealer quoted me $30k for a made in Taiwan wide belt sander, but I can get the exact same sander directly from the factory seller in Taiwan for $18k, so there is your margin.

    I have tried a bit of resawing on my s400p recently, I am sure I am not doing it right because I am not cutting a straight line..

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