Thread: Saw blade blanks

Originally Posted by Malcolm Eaton

What about using replacement floor scraper blades available from Bunning Tool Dept the material has been used before by members for making Tenon saw blades.
If you check back over the last couple of years on articals on saw making there is a write up about the use of this material for saw blanks as well as a material to make cabinet scrapers.
Cheers
Mac

I've read that thread also, and I thought the scrapers were made in china, unknown quality and no longer available. Someone did get in touch with the supplier at one stage who was just importing them. Like to know if this is not the case and worth pursuing.

What are people wanting to spend?? People keep throwing up options which are more expensive. Not much point me ordering rolls if people aren't willing to spend around $10 for a saw blade. I'll just order enough for the workshop and a bit for myself.

I only need 3' or so of the .02. $10 a foot sounds more than fine to me.

Cheers
Matt

Originally Posted by Malcolm Eaton

What about using replacement floor scraper blades available from Bunning Tool Dept the material has been used before by members for making Tenon saw blades.
If you check back over the last couple of years on articals on saw making there is a write up about the use of this material for saw blanks as well as a material to make cabinet scrapers.

Malcolm, the Bunnies scraper blades were quite good saw plate material for larger saws, at a little over 0.8 mm. They were hard, measured by BobL at around 52Rc, which is about as hard as you would want saw-plate to be. There is just one catch - they seem to have stopped carrying them. All the Bunnies stores within a cut-lunch & full water bottle distance of me have sold out over the last 6 months (I bought the last couple of blades at two of them! ), & none have re-stocked. I have asked at a few stores if & when they expect new stock and got no useful answers - one bloke stood there in front of the empty box & categorically denied they had ever sold such a thing.

If they ever get any more, and they are the same blades as before, they are excellent raw material for saws!

Originally Posted by Heavansabove

.... Incidentally a very cheap saw - Medallist Shark that was unusable out of the packaging and thrown out by a school - 14" long, and 3.75 wide after the teeth sheared off - is also .03". Some of these saws are perhaps cheaper than scraper blades? I am yet to tooth it up and put a handle on it (using as a short finer rip saw, no back). Be interesting to see how good the steel is, has anyone used these cheapies as feedstock?

Peter, yes, I have re-used quite a few cheapie saw blades, once you get the couple of mm of hardened metal off, they seem to be perfectly good, 'normal' saw plate. They do tend to be on the thick side, between 25 & 30 thou. That restricts the minimum practical tooth size. If you try setting too small teeth on too thick plate, you'll soon see what I mean.

I have been eying off the 16-18" cheap hard-point saws as a source of saw-plate. I'll pick up a couple on sale, sometime, and give them a whirl, for sure. I find it hard to just cut off a set of brand new teeth, though, so I will have to use them a bit before taking the cutoff wheel to them!


If we can get good quality, 75mm wide, 25 thou plate at around $10 per 300mm, that's about as good a deal as you are likely to get, short of buying a container load, I reckon.....

Cheers,

Realistically what saws are people wanting to make as that is what will determine the suitability of materials from any source.

Fine cabinetry saw, thin kerf dovetail. 1.5-2" x 0.015"
Dovetail 2" x 0.02"
Carcass saw, Tennon saw 3" x 0.02" maybe larger.
etc. etc.


I was looking at 2" x 0.015" & 3" x 0.02", maybe there is more demand for the heavier 3" x 0.025" than the thin kerf stuff?

I had a 14" 14tpi xc in mind, just because, and I need to replace the blade on a 10" dt. .020 or .025 sounds right for that no? I can't see myself making saws with teeny tiny teeth in .015, I don't have the patience or finess.

[QUOTE=Berlin;1679535]I had a 14" 14tpi xc in mind, just because, and I need to replace the blade on a 10" dt. .020 or .025 sounds right for that no? I can't see myself making saws with teeny tiny teeth in .015, I don't have the patience or finesse.[a/QUOTE]

I'll give my opinions based on my own saw making experience. It's not gospel, so if anyone disagrees or has other opinions, that's all good.

First, I'll admit I'm not a big fan of very fine saw teeth. My opinion is that for general cabinetmaking a dovetail saw of around 15-16tpi is ideal. If you are a boxmaker or someone who regularly works with wood 6mm or so thick, then 18 or 20tpi would be a better choice, perhaps (I frequently saw dovetails in 6-8mm thick wood with my 16tpi saw, with few problems). The thickness of sawplate has a bearing on both the overall stiffness of the finished saw, and the minimum size of teeth it will take. You can cut any size tooth you like, but when it comes to setting, you'll find you end up with a mess if you try to push the upper third of tiny teeth over in thick plate. I've never seen anything written on this, but from my own experience, I'd suggest the following rule of thumb:
15 thou plate is good for teeth from 14 to 25 tpi, length up to 250mm max width 60mm
20 thou plate 12 to 18tpi, length to 300mm, width 75-80mm
25 thou 10 to 14tpi, 350-450mm, widths of 100mm plus
30 thou up to 10 tpi & as long as you're game to make it

The reasons I think those gauges are good for those dimensions is because you can maintain good blade stiffness with a reasonably proportioned spine. Exceeding these proportions is risky, because it will be hard to maintain acceptable stiffness unless you use a deeper & heavier spine, and that could get cumbersome. But because I haven't actually made a longer or deeper saws than I've suggested, I'm just going on expectations, & if someone tells me they've made one substantially longer & deeper that is a crackerjack saw, I'll have to change my mind. (I would like to try the saw, first, though! )

For example, I've made several dovetail saws like this, about 220mm, with 15 thou plate, a 3/16" thick spine, 16 tpi. The blade is around 45-50mm at the handle, canting to around 40mm at the toe (give or take a few mm on all dimensions).

D-tail 220mm blade.jpg

You can make exactly the same saw using 20 thou plate, and it will still be a very good saw, and cut just as fast, or so close you won't pick the difference. The heavier gauge feels a bit stiffer, which some people might find more reassuring. So in my view, 20 and 25 thou plate is the most useful, because they cover the range of small to medium backsaws very well . I love my 15 thou dovetailer, but it may not be everyone's cup of tea, and I use heavier gauge plate on all saws larger than it.

I hope that is of some use to those trying to decide on what they'd like to make in what gauge plate......

Cheers,

Stocked sizes – Imperial (ins)


Coils Hardened, Tempered and Polished Dressed Edges

x	.009	.010	.012	.015	.018	.020	.022
3/8	x	x	x
1/2		x			x		x
5/8		x			x		x
3/4		x		x		x
1		x		x		x
1.1/4		x		x		x
1.1/2		x		x		x

Coils Annealed Sheared Edges

x	.015	.020	.024	.028	.032	.036	.048	.064
4	x	x	x	x	x	x	x	x

I'm hoping that this means they do 4" wide plate, I am happy to buy a reasonable amount of plate as i'm sure i will stuff a few up in the learning process Cheers Richie

Hi IanW, Do you think that the venerable Whitney Punch available from Blackwoods would be able to punch the holes in Saw Plate, we use one at work to punch through 4140 chrome moly sheet for the race cars, as i havent made a saw before i dont know how 4140 compares to 1095 in this respect.
Also T&E Tools do an equivalent Cheaper version,
Any Thoughts?
Cheers,
Richie

Originally Posted by johnnyrsa

Ok so I mailed the guys from TGIAG and the reply I got: "sorry we don't do overseas shipping, too costly" back to square one.
maybe I should just buy a cheap steel backed disston on ebay and use it's blade.

Johnny, I might be visiting the States in a month or so's time. If the trip comes off, I might be coming back with some woodworking stuff in my luggage and could bring a couple of saw plates from TGIAG.

I'll let you know once I have an address over there to have things sent to.

Originally Posted by Richie Rich

Stocked sizes – Imperial (ins)


Coils Hardened, Tempered and Polished Dressed Edges

x	.009	.010	.012	.015	.018	.020	.022
3/8	x	x	x
1/2		x			x		x
5/8		x			x		x
3/4		x		x		x
1		x		x		x
1.1/4		x		x		x
1.1/2		x		x		x

Coils Annealed Sheared Edges

x	.015	.020	.024	.028	.032	.036	.048	.064
4	x	x	x	x	x	x	x	x

I'm hoping that this means they do 4" wide plate, I am happy to buy a reasonable amount of plate as i'm sure i will stuff a few up in the learning process Cheers Richie

4" is annealed which i believe is softened the opposite of the hardened, tempered above which I think is what you would want.

Originally Posted by Richie Rich

Hi IanW, Do you think that the venerable Whitney Punch available from Blackwoods would be able to punch the holes in Saw Plate, we use one at work to punch through 4140 chrome moly sheet for the race cars, as i havent made a saw before i dont know how 4140 compares to 1095 in this respect.
Also T&E Tools do an equivalent Cheaper version,
Any Thoughts?
Cheers,
Richie

Hi Ritchie,

A hand punch works for 20 thou with considerable effort.. any thicker than that and you do better with a carbide drill.. there are lots of other ways to do it, including hss drill bits, re-sharpened masonry bits, even carbide router bits with suitable work holding.

And even a nail in a drill press can work, the idea is you run the nail hard against the saw plate until the spot glows red hot, and then let it cool slowly annealing the spot you want to drill, and then swap to a conventional hss drill bit to drill the (now softened) spot.

My preference would be for solid carbide drill in a drill press when you have plate thicker than 20 thou, and a Whitney style punch for 20 thou and under.

Originally Posted by Dale

4" is annealed which i believe is softened the opposite of the hardened, tempered above which I think is what you would want.

Yes, you are correct, don't even think about getting annealed stock for saw plate, hardening and tempering thin plate is a non-trivial exercise..

Regards
Ray

Originally Posted by Richie Rich

Hi IanW, Do you think that the venerable Whitney Punch available from Blackwoods would be able to punch the holes in Saw Plate, we use one at work to punch through 4140 chrome moly sheet for the race cars, as i havent made a saw before i dont know how 4140 compares to 1095 in this respect.
Also T&E Tools do an equivalent Cheaper version,
Any Thoughts?
Cheers,
Richie

Richie, sorry, but I don't know the answer to either question. I think RayG uses punches for his saws, and has a vastly greater knowledge of things metal than I do, so he may be able to tell you (woops, should have read on, he's already answered! ). I use carbide tipped drills to make the holes, those blue ones (forget the brand) for builders, with a bunch of symbols on the packet indicating they will make holes in any building material known to man. They drill enough holes in spring steel to pay for themselves.

Cheers,

I'd be interested in purchasing some saw plate, brass for backs and split nuts if others are ordering and need to break up a bulk order

Many ways to put hole in the plate when required. I think the best drill bit if you are going down that path is a Solid Carbide Spade Drill. They are designed for drilling shallow holes in steels harder than RC 50 and for thin sheet metal applications. They also have a broader rake to the tip and don't require, infact shouldn't be used with a pilot hole. You can centre punch if you ar worried about them drill walking but iit shouldn't be necessary due to the design of the drill.

Screen shot 2013-08-02 at 10.48.22 AM.png

Traditional twist drill bits may tend to wander when started on an unprepared surface. Once a bit wanders off-course it is difficult to bring it back on center. A center drill bit frequently provides a reasonable starting point as it is short and therefore has a reduced tendency to wander when drilling is started.

While the above is a common use of center drill bits, it is a technically incorrect practice and should not be considered for production use. The correct tool to start a traditionally-drilled hole (a hole drilled by a high-speed steel (HSS) twist drill bit) is a spotting drill bit (or a spot drill bit, as they are referenced in the U.S.). The included angle of the spotting drill bit should be the same as, or greater than, the conventional drill bit so that the drill bit will then start without undue stress on the bit's corners, which would cause premature failure of the bit and a loss of hole quality.

Most modern solid-carbide bits should not be used in conjunction with a spot drill bit or a center drill bit, as the solid-carbide bits are specifically designed to start their own hole. Usually, spot drilling will cause premature failure of the solid-carbide bit and a certain loss of hole quality. If it is deemed necessary to chamfer a hole with a spot or center drill bit when a solid-carbide drill bit is used, it is best practice to do so after the hole is drilled.

Oh I think from memory it is a 3/16 hole in the plate also.