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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Default Imitation - The sincerest form of flattery.

    Many of you are entirely familiar with the Seaton tool chest and the fact that the saws in it were made by John Kenyon & Co.. I have long been an admirer of these saws, along with several hundred thousand other hand saw enthusiasts around the world.

    The company operated in Sheffield from 1710 through to 1930 when it was wound up by the receiver. The famed saws date from around 1790.

    Othe companies have made replicas already including Wenzloff and Sons and Bad Axe. Also a UK company Skelton Saws. I expect there are others and I don't pretend this list is exhaustive.

    These are the Wenzloff saws for those unfamiliar with the look:

    wenzloff_kenyon_saws.jpg

    A while back, probably quite a while when I think hard, I purchased two 18" x 6" saw plates as part of a group buy on the Forum.

    They have been sitting around doing sweet Fanny Adams for too long and recently I embarked on my original intention to make up a large back saw and a small panel saw. The saw plates are .032" and the teeth are 8ppi rip for the panel saw and 10ppi for the back saw.

    The panel saw went pretty well and has a Forest Red Gum handle:

    Kenyon Panel saw replica 008.jpgKenyon Panel saw replica 009.jpgKenyon Panel saw replica 010.jpgKenyon Panel saw replica 011.jpg

    The back saw has had "issues." The first was that the brass back was totally out of proportion for a saw this deep. The back supplied at 20mm deep is suitable for a saw with 3" under the back not twice that amount. So initially I tried to bend up a piece of 2" brass flat bar, but to cut a long story short, I did not have the right bending equipment and on top of that I did not anneal the metal successfully. It split. Twice!

    So now I have another piece of brass that I will slit instead.

    The second issue was that I had all but finished the handle (except that I had not cut the top to receive the back and neither had I beveled the handle at that point) when I realised the timber had developed a crack. As this saw is intended for resale (the panel saw is all mine ) I have to make another handle. I put the saw loosely together to show the lack of proportion that the standard size back gives and to make myself feel better that I nearly got there.

    Kenyon Panel saw replica 001.jpgKenyon Back saw replica 002.jpgKenyon Back saw replica 003.jpgKenyon Back saw replica 004.jpgKenyon Back saw replica 005.jpg

    And here is the wretched crack:


    Kenyon Back saw replica 006.jpgKenyon Backl saw replica 007.jpg

    I was hoping that this thread would be a fait accompli. It has morphed into a WIP !

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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  3. #2
    Join Date
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    Default

    I forgot to mention the hardware, which as you can see is recycled. From the sunken style of medallion I would estimate that is is around the period 1890 through to 1910 as it has the Glover patent style of screw. I rather like the eagle medallions and with the Warranted Superior lettering it is not overly pretentious.

    As both are intended as user saws I did not want to use vintage split nuts as they would not be durable enough. I was tempted to use some of Rob Streeper's hardware (which I think are very attractive by the way), but the cost was already blowing the budget so I resisted. Besides which, I had the spare hardware anyway.

    Regards
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  4. #3
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    Nov 2011
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    Paul,
    Fantastic result with saws,
    The panel saw looks great the forest red gum works nicely.
    My condolences with the back saw handle that's a real pain in the behind.
    Especially getting so close to being finished.
    I know I've talked about folding my own backs but still haven't got around to it[emoji20].
    Do you think your choice of hardware will cause some head scratching in a plus hundred years time lol.
    Or was that deliberate [emoji83]

    Cheers Matt

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Katoomba NSW
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    4,770

    Default

    The panel saw looks great Paul. I'm curious as to why such a short saw. I haven' t done a huge amount of hand sawing but I prefer a longer stroke, especially with a rip saw.
    I also really like the large back saw. I've had a go with Claw Hamma's Bad Axe version and it is very nice to use.
    Those were the droids I was looking for.
    https://autoblastgates.com.au

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas, USA
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    Default

    Very nicely done Paul, too bad about the crack. Each year I burn a number of failed handles for Christmas.
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  7. #6
    Join Date
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
    Do you think your choice of hardware will cause some head scratching in a plus hundred years time lol.
    Or was that deliberate [emoji83]

    Cheers Matt
    Matt

    I really don't know what level of confusion will be caused. I reflect on how much conjecture surrounds the Simonds company and they didn't set out to confuse anybody! Actually I paid no attention to that aspect being somebody who can hardly remember what he did last week and doesn't think much beyond tomorrow.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  8. #7
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    Tony

    The panel saw is that length because the plate was only 18" long. Originally I was going to make three saws from the one plate: A long, 4" deep back saw and a couple of short, two inch deep dovetail saws. This was by cutting the plate down it's length and cutting in new teeth. However I changed my mind in favour of the Kenyon panel saw. In fact, most of the manufacturers made panel saws down to about 16".

    Like you, I do like the full size saws, but as you may recall, I have some of those too.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  9. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rob streeper View Post
    Very nicely done Paul, too bad about the crack. Each year I burn a number of failed handles for Christmas.
    Rob

    I am pleased to hear I am not alone in the failure department. My biggest concern is the toll it takes on the rasps with the timber I am using being fairly hard. They are wearing out too quickly. However, I will do my ceremonial burning in July.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas, USA
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    Default

    You might try the Liogier rasps with the Sapphire coating (aluminium titanium siliconcarbonitride, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titani...minium_nitride), mine haven't worn in the years I've been using them.
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  11. #10
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    Rob

    The Liogier rasps are exactly the brand I am using. They are wonderful, but not cheap. Most are the sapphire coated versions. Some are not coated.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  12. #11
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    Default

    Paul,

    You must work very tough species. Hard to think of expensive rasps as consumables.

    Regards,
    Rob
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  13. #12
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    Nov 2011
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    Melbourne
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Rob

    The Liogier rasps are exactly the brand I am using. They are wonderful, but not cheap. Most are the sapphire coated versions. Some are not coated.

    Regards
    Paul
    Maybe I should try one, one day.
    I've just been using my cloth backed sandpaper and files.

  14. #13
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    Matt and Rob

    I use the cloth backed sand paper too, but normally after the rasps have brought the shape as close as possible. Matt, you should put your name down with Fence Furniture for his next GB with Liogier.

    Rob

    I suspect, make that know, I am using timbers that are difficult to work because of their density. I have a box full of suitable Australian timbers that are much more suitable in terms of workability, but out of some perverse sense have persisted with the hard (literally) timber. I think it is because they are so recogniseably Australian.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  15. #14
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    Default

    Hell, I just looked back at how long it's been since i first worked on these two projects. More than six months!

    For a long while, particularly with the back saw, I was completely stuck on two aspects. I had had three failures with the handle: Two from cracks developing and one where I accidentally but stupidly cut through the handle. The second problem was with the back. I had wanted to fold the back and using both steel and brass I had dismal failures. I did not have the right equipment and this was exacerbated by the 18" length of the saw. I needed a pan brake to fold the material and oxy/acetelene to anneal the material. I split the steel trying to fold it cold, which surprised me.

    I have now solved those issues. I took the steel back off a mitre saw, which has sufficient proportion to it, that came my way and used a piece of Tulip Oak for the handle. This is how it came up:

    P1020800.JPGP1020801.JPGP1020802.JPGP1020803.JPGP1020806.JPGP1020807.JPGP1020808.JPGP1020809.JPG

    The saw is a bit of a monster. I took a pic in conjunction with a 14" Simonds No.96 for comparison:


    P1020810.JPG

    The Tulip Oak displays some amazing "lights" if you can catch it just right. Unfortunately my photographic skills were not up to that level and this was the best I could do.

    P1020837.JPGP1020840.JPG

    Sorry about the last pic being out of focus.

    Fortunately my customer has been preoccupied with other endeavours and is very patient also so is still in the market.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  16. #15
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    Default

    That's a big one now isn't it.

    That's a huge saw plate Paul, I feel for you regard the getting there.
    And yep folding a length of steel that long by hand can, and I'm sure has been done.
    It would certainly be a labour of love with a couple of affairs thrown in as well.

    The saw looks fantastic Paul well done.
    What's next[emoji12]

    Cheers Matt
    My editor is on strike[emoji52]

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