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24th February 2018, 02:12 AM #181SENIOR MEMBER
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I agree that tool chops make a huge difference in how your tools hold up.... I have noticed this is particularly critical with hand saws.... And there is literally a learned skill for sawing correctly.... And once you learn it - not only are your cuts are fantastically better, but your saws hold up a lot better too...
No doubt there is a similar skill with chisel work - I watch Paul Sellers hammer away at a 4" thick piece of oak with his Aldi chisel and he just plows and plows and plows and gets a massive amount of work out of the chisel... I would have completely ruined the edges within the first inch of the first cut...
But here is a case where I think some of this "Magic" of chisels getting better with use is simply removing soft metal and finally getting to good, hard metal.. I have A/B'ed aggressively prepped chisels vs minimally prepped chisels - and for the chisels I have tried - the aggressively prepped chisel always outperforms on the same cuts, same bevel angle, same sharpening routine... Granted, I haven't done any "Good ones" like the fine Japanese chisels, LN, or LV... Pfeil and Two Cherries chisels were not exceptions...
The interesting thing is that I am not changing bevel angles or changing the setup of the chisel other than to simply keep grinding away material until it passes a few simple tests on wood.... And yes - there certainly are duds....
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24th February 2018, 02:52 AM #182GOLD MEMBER
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Most of the chisels at this price level are made in dies with a press, or hammered with dies. If reasonable procedures are followed, the quality from one make to the next should be fairly consistent.
I have bought somewhere around 60 or so japanese chisels over the years (guessing...it could just as easily be 90). Aside from some being harder than others, almost all of them are relatively equivalent.
I find Fujibato (330Mate) to be a bit of an unpleasant shyster sometimes - selling stones with cracks, etc, as super high dollar items - but I doubt that there's any significant difference between those chisels and Iyoroi. When you go up the price ladder, what you really get is finish level and only slightly better edge holding. Iyoroi is middle of the road toolage equivalent to stanley, etc, of old. Not saying that they are the same hardness (they are not), but that the finish level is mid grade, a tool to be used, and not a tool driven to the outer limits of workmanship and edge holding. the other chisels that Fujibato sells will generally be the same if you can't find an outright defect on them. They're just unmarked for one reason or another, so he sells them as unbranded.
It's not like there's a gray haired guy carefully hand working or inspecting any of the chisels that are $50 each.
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24th February 2018, 04:17 AM #183GOLD MEMBER
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One last thing before I fixate on other items (re chisel quality and who is actually using what). When Tommy (what's his last name?) of Rough Cut fame was doing his show independently, he was using very inexpensive tools and making spectacular work. In an episode that is now, I'm sure, pulled from public eye, he compared a marples chisel and a LN chisel in the context of actual work. He hated the LN chisel because of "how hard they are to sharpen", which some people will laugh at, but the people who laugh at that are laughing from their position of deliberate (slow) processes, honing guides and screwing around. Tommy wanted a chisel that could be made sharp easily with very minimal gear, be used, and then be made sharp easily again. He had a king stone and a leather strop (and a bombe chest in production in case you would question his ability).
Very few of us do enough work to understand the virtue of a tool in its work cycle (or in the context of work) rather than based on nominal attributes. The more work I've done, the less fascinated I've become with absolute edge holding, and more in total work in context. It's pointed me back toward the older chisels that have simpler alloys and sometimes aren't particularly hard compared to the mid-60s RC hardness catalog queens. If professionals would've preferred super hard chisels, the old chisels would've been that hardness. They were intentionally tempered softer, and the notion that the steel in them is substandard to current steel is generally farce. They're usually better, but were harder to make and took more skill and follow-up work after hardening and tempering. Could users have sharpened harder chisels? Sure, you could buy corundum easily 200+ years ago, and I'm sure carvers used it in buffs or strops to finish their carving tools. The market of professional users just determined uber hard chisels to be undesirable because they were working with them and not trying to pare tiny bits off of ring porous woods (paring would've be something more like slipping a 16th of an inch of end grain off of a tenon shoulder in one shot - right to the marked line, rather than a bunch of prissy cuts - wasting time - and that prissy stuff is where super hard steels will work longer).
The older japanese chisels are the exception, but they also had stones with natural alumina in them and a strange theory that sharpening on site was embarrassing and unacceptable, so they developed this odd fascination with edge retention above all else. In actual use, I prefer japanese chisels that are a touch softer - 62/63 level instead of 66. You can refresh them quickly, and they're still plenty hard. They also have fewer catastrophic events in hardwood.
Tommy and countless other guys actually working were just using blue handled marples chisels, and had a distaste for spec-queen numbers. Going along with that, I see that the V11 veritas chisels aren't the hardest in the pack. Given that they're basically stainless steel, I'm sure they found that driving them up to 64 or something did not yield any practical benefit, especially when you add sharpening to the mix.
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24th February 2018, 06:09 AM #184
So far the JP chisels, all of them, are the best performers and they're very easy to sharpen. The most expensive JP set (fishtails) were less costly than the LN, LV and BS chisel sets. The least expensive JP set was less expensive than the Marples which were my worst performers. I think that the Japanese makers have got this stuff figured out and the European and American makers have a way to go yet.
Much like the JP auto manufacturers. You'd think that by now, ~45 years after the Honda CVCC was first imported, the US makers would have seen the light and improved to at least parity but they haven't.Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
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24th February 2018, 06:48 AM #185SENIOR MEMBER
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DW.. That's a good point about real life work...
In my chisel prep experiments - 19 chisels total now.... Once I get through the mush to good steel - every one will pare end grain spruce and chop end grain mahogany efficiently without edge trauma straight off 100 grit sandpaper - bevel and back... That's how I tested them.... It's simply too much trouble to hone and polish - then test and find out the edge rolls... I honed and stropped them once I got through all that... And they do cut better.. But a 100 grit edge is adequate.
If I was on a jobsite which required significant chisel work - I would take the hand held 100 grit belt sander along and that would be the sharpener.... And based on my incidental evidence - fast and plenty adequate..
But I am not out on a jobsite... I am a gentleman user.... And my pride in my tools demands a well prepped edge... I like it better that way
On historical chisel sharpening by workmen... Practicality trumps legend... Back in Ye Olde Days - prior to 1940 or thereabouts.. The majority of jobsites had no electricity. Workmen carried all their tools on their backs... Tools are heavy... Stones are heavier... So most workmen were taught to find a good looking rock, paver, or brick - and sharpen on that... It's sufficient. No doubt the Japanese workman's displeasure of sharpening on the worksite came out of the same displeasure of carrying rocks on your back... Not to mention that water stones are quite fragile compared to India and Turkish oil stones... Cement and brick was not common in most of Japan.. Perhaps the native rocks aren't well suited towards flattening onsite as the Old Roman tradition of rubbing two bricks together to get a good sharpening stone... And thus the divergence of tradition..
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24th February 2018, 08:14 AM #186
TJ
You make a good point about using whatever is to hand for sharpening purposes. This would would apply primarily to the cruder end of the building and carpentry trades than refined shop built products. I recall as a small child my father had a lump of sandstone on which we used to sharpen the axe. We just used to puddle a small amount of water in the middle and on reflection that probably produced a slurry. There... we have a primitive water stone.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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24th February 2018, 08:22 AM #187
Having done 'field work' involving chisels I wouldn't want to carry sharpening stuff on the job, I'd prefer a chisel that would hold an edge well enough to complete at least a days work. That's why I carried the Craftsman chisels in my tool tote, never had a problem with them becoming ineffective on a job. In light of my testing results I now know why.
Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
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24th February 2018, 11:13 AM #188SENIOR MEMBER
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Rob,
When you get a chance - please post a few pix of your paring force test rig. I am very curious about how you make it go and read right.
Thanks
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24th February 2018, 11:32 AM #189
Sorry, I just realized you joined this conversation relatively recently.
At the risk of provoking more of the type of heckling that resulted in my original thread being shut down have a look here: Experiments with the BESS system
I've evolved my technique and tools somewhat since using the original system but I think it would be too risky to post a picture openly as doing so may reignite that issue.Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
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25th February 2018, 06:41 AM #190
Hi Rob
I may have missed the detail of your technique for hardness testing when I first read your initial posts in this thread.
If I have and what follows is what you are doing, please don't take offence.
A recent post on the Metalwork Forum linked to a series of annual news letters from an Australian fastener supplier.
One of them -- https://www.hobson.com.au/files/hobs...volume-019.pdf -- has a summary of the Rockwell test procedure from ASTM F606.
If I've understood the description, hardness testing requires that any surface decarburization be removed before testing the base material, and each test should consist of the average of 4 measurements.
As I said, not to criticise -- just to clarrify.regards from Alberta, Canada
ian
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25th February 2018, 07:52 AM #191
Hi Ian,
I'm following the attached. I've posted this before on my discussion of saw blade testing but the post is somewhat remote.
NIST_Rockwell_Hardness.pdfInnovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
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25th February 2018, 08:06 AM #192
I took the Marples bench chisel that performed so poorly above and did a lot of work on the back to remove some errant grinding marks installed by a previous owner.
The hardness of the chisel on this polished surface now is HRC 58.7, average of 10 measurements.
Thus, this chisel doesn't seem to have a softened layer.Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
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25th February 2018, 10:49 AM #193SENIOR MEMBER
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It was worth a try if you have to go at it anyway...
I am starting to think there is something else going on related either to the coarse edge formed or something to do with the edge geometry... The process of Chopping seems like it makes up for sharpness with the large mallet inertia... The edge formed would not shave hairs by a long shot - but it chopped beautifully... It would not chop well once I was back to hair popping sharp....
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25th February 2018, 03:46 PM #194
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25th February 2018, 04:12 PM #195
I have seen that joke before. I still like it .
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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