Page 44 of 44 FirstFirst ... 34394041424344
Results 646 to 655 of 655
  1. #646
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    1,250

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by truckjohn View Post
    And so with all that being said - it would be pretty ironic to find out that by and large - assuming quality steel properly manufactured (properly rolled, drawn, or forged) and heat treated for the correct microstructure - the effect of the steel itself was fairly small because it's pretty similar...
    That's what I'd conclude. the updated alloys are for the convenience of the makers. They can be nice if they're done well, but A2 and D2 are, to me, always going to trail the pack unless the work is just outright abusive.

    The plain steels that are sold today that are done poorly, or done with a compromise (e.g., austempering by narex to eliminate post hardening work) - some of that is steel, but a lot is compromise.

    I'll bet that the sorby chisels that are 58 or so would be entirely different animals at 61. Something closer to the AI chisels.

    The beauty of the old plainer steels is that even if the microstructure of them isn't perfect, they're still really fine.

  2. # ADS
    Google Adsense Advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Posts
    Many





     
  3. #647
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Adelaide Hills, South Australia
    Posts
    2,989

    Default

    On Swedish steel, it's no mystery why the Swedes got so good at steels for cutting wood. I'm currently travelling there and the timber industry is still a big deal here.

    Yesterday I visited a J-knife shop a few doors down from where I'm currently staying in Stockholm. I had a chat with the Japanese guy who runs the shop and we talked about steels and stones. Among other things, I also showed him a photo of one of my favourite J-knife that is made by a well known J-smith. Interestingly, the cutting steel in that knife is made from very old Uddeholm Swedish steel. To go past their own steels is an indication of the respect that some Japanese master blacksmiths have for old Swedish tool steel.

    Sent from my ZTE T84 using Tapatalk
    Stay sharp!

    Neil



  4. #648
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    1,250

    Default

    Yes on two fronts. Timber industry is big, and they have clean ore.

    I guess three fronts - they've also got a booming engineered products industry in sweden.

    It's interesting that the two popular steels in japanese tool lore (which of what we see discussed is very "young" compared to english and american tools) are swedish and English (Andrews). I don't know where the English transition is with specialty high carbon steels, they aren't for sale here in the states. US producers of engineered products are diemaking focus now (S30, M2, etc) and only Hitachi white comes to mind as a "blade steel".

    Assab K120 would straddle white 2 and white 1 yasuki/hitachi, and the tools in the past that I've bought with swedish have been identical to hitachi tools, except the tempering seems to be a little bit softer (which leads to the old wives tale that swedish carbon steel sharpens really easily vs. hitachi - that's only the case for any of plainer steels if they aren't tempered to the same degree. I'd guess both swedish plane irons I've had are probably tempered very low 60s. The white 1 irons don't feel like they've had any tempering and were overhard).

    Long story short, I don't know:
    * how much new swedish steel is actually making it to japan (or if it's stock being used from old makers who died and had a pile left)
    * if there's really any practical difference, or it's just lingering use due to reputation

    I get the sense that a lot of the exotic stuff sold out of japan sells better to gaijin than it does to japanese users (who would probably see something like a new andrews-steel plane as high expense versions of a $400 tool for foreigners to be taken on). When Japanese manufactured steel was overloaded with impurities, English and Swede served a purpose. It's just notional now given the quality and variety of Hitachi steels.

  5. #649
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    1,250

    Default

    Follow-up to this. I see that So says Uddeholm (Assab maker) is still supplying K120 to japanese tool makers, but they've stopped making it with 1.2% carbon. It's now just 1% carbon.

    I wonder if the habit of making it lower hardness has something to do with knowing that it's now a very pedestrian steel.

    And, I wonder what buyers would think if they knew that the new K120 tools they're getting are technically not quite as good as most White #2 (or have quite as much potential for edge longevity).

    A good quality european or very old american 1095 or W1 would match K120.

    (my real question to a japanese maker of a plain carbon steel iron would be "how hard is it, and how brittle is it?" rather than what kind of steel is it. )

  6. #650
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    SC, USA
    Posts
    439

    Default

    Bumpity bump.

    I think this is one of my favorite threads ever. Any more word if anything more came out of it?

  7. #651
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas, USA
    Posts
    2,997

    Default

    I've been thinking about it. I have stuff lined up, i.e. scattered all over the place, to continue this effort but have been overwhelmed with other work. I recently bought a LN sharpening jig for testing against the others as I've done in the past.

    My primary concern is advancing this: What I've been working on while away from WWF. Next step is some more experiments and another patent application for another use on top of ongoing fundraising efforts, something that apparently never ends.

    To put beans in the pot I've been doing this: Always ensure blade guards are in place! Even if it's not your tool! BLOOD AND GORE
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  8. #652
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas, USA
    Posts
    2,997

    Default

    duplicate
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  9. #653
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    1,250

    Default

    Well done on the patent work. I was thinking about your study the other day because the topic of A2 steel came up on another forum, and the strangeness of the discussion struck me because there's not that much head to head testing. Stageness meaning that a dozen year ago, it as just accepted that A2 was wonderful and lasted many times longer than anything else.

    Except that it doesn't in chisels, and it has some bad habits in planes. I was rolling my drawers open on a roller cabinet I'm using to store guitar tools, and figuring out what I want to sell, and there sits a set of western forge craftsman chisels that I'm not sure I've used for anything yet!

  10. #654
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    US
    Posts
    1,250

    Default

    Rob - I've posted your hardness summary (the image with the largest number of chisels summarized) on woodcentral with discussion about it, credit given to you as the origin and describing some of the process. I'm dropping a post in this thread only to make sure you're OK with that. There isn't that much traffic over there and many of the members don't venture out of the forum, so I don't think they'd be able to view a link to this thread (and they might die out of anger if they read all 44 pages).

    The level of interest in it for me is that I'd guessed which chisels were hard and soft in this test, but never saw numbers attached, so I didn't know if the japanese chisels were really 65 ish, or if they just say that. Nor did I know whether the sorby chisels (I had a couple of sets, still have at least one set) are disappointingly soft because they're 55 1/2 or 58.

    I think this data is very useful for people who are out looking around to buy, because in my opinion, most people will not be satisfied with a chisel that is specified as 58 (it will experience durability issues in hardwood, even at normal angles), and most would be stymied above the low 60s. Looking back over the summary, it's almost shocking just how all of the chisels that we regard well (the bergs, etc) - not as magic, but nice chisels to use - are pretty much 60/61.

    My own modern favorites (ashley iles) are specified at 61, and I believe they're right on it. From a user's standpoint, not only does the 58 hardness chisel struggle to maintain a good edge, but on many sharpening mediums (especially natural stones) they struggle to take as good of an edge as a harder chisel, and then they hold their wire edge far too long.

    Bliss for someone in the middle of working wood is an edge that stays on reasonably long, doesn't fail by chipping or folding in any significant extent, and that doesn't have an obnoxious hold on its own wire edge when you're sharpening, necessitating the use of more than normal stropping.

  11. #655
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas, USA
    Posts
    2,997

    Default

    Feel free Dave.
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

Page 44 of 44 FirstFirst ... 34394041424344

Similar Threads

  1. Rust removal with Citric Acid - pictorial step by step
    By FenceFurniture in forum HAND TOOLS - UNPOWERED
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 4th Apr 2018, 10:58 AM
  2. Step by step on making a Square to Round transition
    By Al B in forum METALWORK FORUM
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 19th Sep 2012, 11:32 AM
  3. Step by Step Pyrography Project Getting Back on Track
    By David Stanley in forum PYROGRAPHY (Woodburning Art)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 25th Sep 2011, 12:53 AM
  4. My project: Lowish deck - work in progress with step by step
    By Reno RSS Feed in forum FLOORING, DECKING, STUMPS, etc.
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 16th Nov 2009, 08:00 AM
  5. Excellent step-by-step instructions for MAloof-style rockers
    By TassieKiwi in forum WOODWORK - GENERAL
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 14th Dec 2006, 01:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •