Thread: Skills shortage - Mick's solution

I love skills shortages.

Bring on the skills shortage.

Where's the skills shortage?

Is there a skills shortage?


At present I feel there is no real skills shortage for people in the woodworking trades and especially in the marine joinery/cabinetmaking or shipwrighting sector.
Since November 2006 I've had a least five people ask me for work.

I'd love to put on an apprentice, unfortunately work just isn't constant and the large wooden boat restoration and contruction jobs I have done in the past just aren't there anymore. Although I recieve many requests for projects to be carried out, I ROTFLMAO at some of the budgets I'm expected to work to. Just a waste of time tendering for the work.

Unfortunately I couldn't keep the chippy I had working for me as I saw 12 months work lined up come down like a pack of dominos in the weeks leading up to Easter. This isn't good.
Pollies need to be very careful when they say things like "The Australian worker has never had it so good".
I think if the 'resources boom' veil were lifted we wouldn't be looking so great. Although we're floggin off real estate, slapping up boxes and throwing credit around like chook food, I feel that the hype about skills shortages for most trades is exactly that. An excuse to free up the movement of labour from overseas.
Why send the factories overseas when it's cheaper to bring the cheaper labour here? Only gotta look at the rorts on the news reguarding the numbers of visa workers being ripped off, paid lower wages and charged excessive fees for living expenses etc.


Anyhow as a previous poster stated its the nature of doing business now, profit above all else , in our brave new world of consumerism.
The people at the bottom of the business pyramid find it harder to make a dollar and the woodbutchery trades are pretty much ground level.
I can't believe that in the year 2007 there's still cabinetmakers working for $15 an hour or less. That used to be a highly reguarded and skilled trade.
My trade as a shipwright is completely dead and is slowly resurecting itself as a cottage industry. When I started my time in the 80s there were 50 first year shipwrights at Ultimo TAFE, in just three years there were 5 first year apprentices. This was during the "recession we had to have".

I feel the (boatbuilding/repair) industry hasn't really recovered from that period onward. There's been a few booms here and there but nothing like it was. At this time the nature of employment in my trade changed drastically. Full time employment was no longer offered and working conditions consisted of either casual or sub contract labour due to the feast or famine nature of business.
It is easier and in most parts cheaper to employ sub contractors than casual staff.
There is a $7k grant now (in Qld) to put on an apprentice. Also, I think most trades now have pre apprenticeship TAFE courses, whereby a prospective apprentice completes the required course for their choosen trade prior to employment out in the field. This is a great for employer and apprentice IMO as you have people with 'some' experience entering the work environment instead of a 'babe in the wood'. But. At the thick end of the iceberg, the work has to be there, interesting work, not just the dregs.

wew! I'm having a coffee...anyone want one?

boatchippie,

Far be it for me to hose down the romantic ideal that people can actually make money working on old boats, but let's face it, it's a "calling" not a trade.

There is very little work for farriers, wheelwrights, coopers, or stenographers any more. I imagine a 45 year old stenographer would be just about unemployable.

Australia just doesn't have the combination of maritime history, quality craft, and wealthy nutcases that is needed to support a large boat building community, but it does have mines, houses, factories and the spinoff from all those things, one of which is the creation of wealthy nutcases who may just fall in love with an old wooden boat one day.

Try employing an electrician in Bundaberg, or a roof plumber in Innisfail, or a cabinet maker in Gladstone. Then tell me about a shortage!

Cheers,

P (currently trying to become a wealthy nutcase, to keep all the wooden boat builders in Aus employed!

Okay.
My 1st yr apprentice wage was $12.50 per week and the old man said bugger that a labourer gets more than thatand paid me $20.00

This has not changed so why would kid work their guts out for 2 yrs ore more to get an equal labouring or factory/unskilled job

I started as a superviser with a builder who said he had a gang of 8 carpenters. He didnt tell me 5 were apprentices one 1st yr 2 second yr 1 third & 1 fourth .

The job was 2nd fix polished oak so I told them tight joints on the ave mitres.

They complained the mitre saw was not cutting accurately. I checked it. It was ok so I told them to fit the mitres and was met with blank stares. With a plane I said.

This is the scary bit. Only one possessed a plane .None had a oil stone or any idea how to tune or even properly set one.

All they had been trained to use were power tools to maximise productivity.

One third yr even refused to use a hammer when the nail gun broke as it would be too slow. She actually couldn't skew nail by hand.

I spent the next 4 weeks trying to train them in the use of hand tools.

The upside is some of them took it on board and their interest in the work improved .

I am sure this is just one story of many.

A very interesting and robust discussion. Seems like misdirected policy by govt, but now I hear there is a call for HECS based funding for TAFE students! Sorry if I've missed the correct reasons for falling intake at uni level, but most of us here blame rising HECS debt on graduating as a major cause. How on earth is it going to increase TAFE numbers?!

Just a couple of observations about issues brought up here:
1/ I had a mate who did his apprenticeship in aircon as a mature age guy, heaps of work... they can't get enough workers and worked him senseless. So much work in fact they were very reluctant to send him for his block at TAFE. When he finally got there, he realised how much theory (ie. understanding of the systems he worked on) he was lacking. Basically he was employed as a lackey to fit as many units as possible.
2/ A well known local cabinetmaker/craftsman, who many of you will recognise through AWR, trained in Germany, and dare I say it, reaching the twilight of his career, refuses to take on an apprentice! I had a big chat with him regarding this, and he simply couldn't afford, as a one-man show, to employ someone he had to supervise...being non-productive. This gent has an enormous skill-base, learnt during a traditional apprenticeship and many years on the job, and it won't get passed down!

Cheers,

Hi....is this the "Who can submit the longest post" thread?

HH.

Originally Posted by rufflyrustic

However, who would take me on as an apprentice and pay me enough to live on. I think it's this that is the stumbling block,

I think this is yours and Sc's dilemma, you're at a point in your life where the money required to support your standard living is more than you can earn doing something you enjoy. Come to think of it I think it's mine too.

Originally Posted by rufflyrustic

I have three degrees, started the fourth last year but gave it away as it took way too much time and money....

Cool I always thought that 3 was enough and two doesn't work without diana ross

Originally Posted by rufflyrustic

Having a year off to work between Grade 12 and Uni is, IMHO, nearly essential. As I work at a uni, it's been interesting to see which students appreciate the opportunity to study and the hard work needed, and which students just want to hang out and party. The students who study after a break from High School always seem to get more out of the their study than those fresh from High School.

I'd guess that's because the kids straight from school are prolly brain dead and sick of study...I know I was but unfortunately Uni wasn't an option for me as my parents couldn't afford to keep me for four more years and I didn't apply myself well enough to get a scholarship...not that any of those were available anyway.

HH.

Originally Posted by HappyHammer

Hi....is this the "Who can submit the longest post" thread?

HH.

Dingo,

Quick get in here it's your Nirvana....

HH.

My history is probably much like Harrys only chuck it back a few years Im 50 left school system at 13 and have been on the dole exactly ZERO times over all that time... Ive worked at WHATEVER work was available shoveling shyte driving shearing mustering carpentry bricklaying prawn trawling whatever the hell job would take me I did... maybe I only last a few weeks at some of them... but back in the 70s and 80s work was plentifull and by that I meant as an unqualified untrained jack of all trades master of none there were 4 jobs to choose from at any time.

I also returned to the education system at 30 while the missus worked and a cousin babysat the then 4 kids... got my year 12 as a mature age thinking it would help get a better sort of job... it didnt... so a few years later I did a correspondence Uni course in counselling... great investment of saved scrounged begged and borrowed money ever... it took 3 years instead of 2 due to family financial needs but persistance payed off... a year later I was still doing voluntary work as a counsellor because no one would hire me unless I had experience so I volunteered... no living in that

I worked hard set up my own business based on the gratis system ergo pay if you can the rate is thus donate if you cant rate is thus... made a lot of tucker that way never had an issue with our cars or needed a thing done that wasnt done by clients... worked out well with Jo working 20 hours a week... that went okay for 8 years until the 8th kid came along... suddenly we realized things must change so we moved south to Perth where I worked for Mission Australia within their office working with long termed unemployed with major preclusions to employment... did that till I hit a minor wall and burnt the fuses in my head a bit then moved over to another agency as a career guidance officer trainer did that for a couple of years until the big burnout happened and I walked in the office door looked around knew what was coming walked into the bosses office and resigned... I had 3 months holiday well not a holiday a time of mind recovery I call it cause mostly I was unable to function due to my head space being frazzled by 12 years of listening to other peoples problems...

I took a chance and went to Kal on speck for work in the mines spent 6 weeks out there getting dribs and drabs a week here a day or two there... all the while seeing the finances crash through the floor... I was on the verge of going back to counselling again when I got the start at the underground mine... I was till that point I believe claustraphobic but I needed to work so I gave it a whirl and loved it... so we moved down here 2 years ago a month later we had the flood and lost 90% of what we owned... I then lost my job because I couldnt leave Jo and the kids in the situation we were in...

So for the first time at 48 I went in with my then 18 year old son to apply for the dole... the rate they quoted me to get the dole was $125 per week! My mortguage was more than that! I walked out without signing a thing... I think at the end when Jo worked it all out we would have been getting somewhere around 400 per week with her child endowment money included... thing was that we were at that time broke I mean flat out no cash anywhere broke with 6 kids still living at home...

So what would you have done? accepted the dole? or gone "get stuffed" and start hammering on doors?

Most doors I found were closed to me based on two bases... first my age at 48 I was too old!!! second was Id been a counsellor for 12 years and a truck driver in UNDERGROUND operations for 2 so all my other experience was over 14 years in history... so no relevent recent history... so for almost a month i was buggared all the while we were trying to throw out almost everything we owned fighting with the east coast based insurance company trying to live as a family in some sort of "normalisy" which wasnt possible since me and the young bloke were living in the back of the F100 here on the property and Jo and the nippers were at her mum and dads tiny 2 bed cottage built in 1930 and definantly not made to have 5 little kids and 1 adult living in it... normal? not bloody likely... but find work? again not likely... one of the other problems I had was that I had exactly 2 pairs of overals and some jocks and socks left to my name everything else was gone... so I was going from place to place without a resume in a pair of overalls and no workboots!! definantly not a good look but the best I could do... explain the situation? I NEVER got the chance! straight up "no theres nothin here mate"

So for nearly 3 months we struggled in a town we didnt know among people who didnt give a flying rats ass... (theres more to that but not for here)

Thing was eventually I got a job with Cats out at worsley supposedly a full time position did the induction signed the WPA not a choice matter dont sign it dont start that simple... did the 3 months starter period no worries at the end of which I was given an "addendment" to the WPA right at the busiest time of my workday and told "Sign this Shane" so I did... a month later I was out on my ass...

Luckily by then we had things pretty much sorted... so back to the underground as the same sort of door slamming things started happening as I looked for work in the Bunbury region

Okay so that didnt work cause my bod decided it had had enough and a series of medical issues a fair amount of hospital time later and Im looking down the barrel of being unemployed once the W/C is over in about a month

So at 50 its going to WITHOUT doubt become even harder for me to find work around here or within the mining industry.

That crap about the mining industry is just that crap... a startup no experience basic mine worker ie: conny worker truck driver drillers offsider will get 23 - 25 per hour after 3 years he will be hopefully if hes confident enough be able to demand maybe 30 an hour...good money? for sure for being away from home society kids mates girlfriends lovers and life for 2 - 5 weeks at a time... some can handle it some cant but if they go expecting to go straight up from a conny worker truck driver to a bogger operator jumbo operator or on the surface to an excavator operator driller FORGET IT!!... In the 3 years Ive been in the industry Ive not once seen ANY truck driver or conny worker being UPSKILLED to operate the more money paying machines!! NOT ONCE!! were talking about training onsite to operate the machines that pay upto and above 1000 a day to operate... They are NOT training anyone to fill these slots!... so aahhh theres going to be a "skill shortage" in the industry for skilled bogger jumbo excavator and drill operators isnt there? but theres a bunch of truck drivers conny workers ONSITE who would LOVE the opportunity to train to be just that but the companys dont even consider them... theyre truck drivers or conny workers brain dead dipsticks so not worth the effort so the hue an cry will go up "oooh poor buggar me Ive got a skill shortage"

Mining companies have the bigest bunch of bloody imbiciles in their training development sections of any industry bar none! so go for it go earn the big bucks as a truck driver but dont expect to get trained to make more money operating the other machines that drive a mine cause it aint going to happen! and forget about training to be a OH&S person onsite cause that DEFINATLY aint going to happen!... you'll be a dipstick truck driver conny worker and thats the end of it.

ahem... the above rant is from a "dipstick truck driver" in the mining industry

Id do just about anything NOT to have to return to the mining industry... to not have to leave Jo and the kids to be able to share their lives on a regular basis as a dad and husband... but I cant simply put Ive been unable AND BROTHER HAVE I LOOKED!!! unable to find anything that pays a LIVING wage around here... so I will be going back not with Byrnecut for sure and probably not with Barminco although id go back with them in a shot good company in my book but theres a lot of companies out there looking for "dipstick truck drivers" and it does pay a good living wage albeit at a huge cost to a family man with kids.

Okay why? well here I can earn 19 per hour as a truck driver working 10 hours a day 6 days a week with one day off a week... up there I can earn 30 (Im confident enough and been in it long enough now to demand and get it) an hour 12 hours a day 14 days straight with a week off... simple economics after a long period of illness and time off dictates that I must go to catch up... if I could find an employer around here willing to pay 25 per hour for me to work 12 hours a day on the same rotation I would jump at it!! Id gladly take a drop of 5 an hour to stay home with Jo and the kdis just to be here be a hubby be a dad and share their lives.

Oh and my younger brother is a ferrier and makes a shyteload at it!!... he tried a few years ago to get away from it got himself a job at the local prison as a guard but has been in demand as a ferrier and has now gone back to it... he spends more time FIXING botched jobs done by the trained "professional" ferriers throughout the state than doing new work... but has more work on as a ferrier than he ever had before... he hasnt found anyone with a vocation to be trained none of the family want to do it or are interested in horses enough and the only advertising hes done led to a bunch of no hopers walking in and walking out once they saw the work he did so he works on alone

And now Ive got to here I have no bloody idea what my initial intention was when I started typing this

Interesting thread by the way

Originally Posted by HappyHammer

Dingo,

Quick get in here it's your Nirvana....

HH.

That crystal ball is great.....

HH.

Originally Posted by HappyHammer

That crystal ball is great.....

HH.

Mate I was just warming up ... but a bit over halfway through I sorta realized that I had no idea what the thread was about anymore so I thought... mmmm maybe I bedda shut up for a bit to try an figure it out... I think I sorta wombled around a bit eh?

But give me a few and I'll arc up again!! oooh Ive got some great rants building up someone mentioned Centrelink? THERES ONE RIGHT THERE!! man can this be a major rant!! easy as!!... someone mentioned that the doles easy? THERES ANOTHERY!!... someone mentioned only wanting to hire older people? THERES The third! man I could go all day in this thread!!! EASY!!

Surely you dont want me to prove it do you?

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

Mate I was just warming up ... but a bit over halfway through I sorta realized that I had no idea what the thread was about anymore

hasnt stopped you before....

Originally Posted by Gra

hasnt stopped you before....

nah guess not eh?