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Thread: Bessler's Wheel

  1. #16
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    @All,
    With Mt 134 it shows 2 lines going from a top weight to a bottom weight. If 2 lines replaced B, then the top weight could be lifted twice
    as high as the bottom weigh drops. While today we have slides, in Bessler's time he had scissors. And if he previous pictures where the levers
    were scissored, then we can start to consider all of the mechanics involved.
    edited to add; what needs to be remembered is that both the top and bottom weights would be retracted the same distance towards center.
    This will increase the inertia they have and the pulleys that replace B will transfer force from the bottom weight to the top weight.

    Jim
    https://goo.gl/photos/6kbPNzgwCBqvNMA77

    Scissors would explain how a top and a bottom weight can be retracted using a drum.
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    Last edited by James_; 5th February 2017 at 06:35 AM. Reason: add information and clarify post and a 2nd image

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  3. #17
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    @All,
    If you look at h design in post #10, the math is fairly simple. The short levers need to be in a fixed position 30° to the long lever and 1/2 it's length.
    The long lever can rotate 30°. This keeps the retraction line at an angle of 90° to the drum and the axle. This last part is important.
    When a 750 gram weight drops 15 cm's (long lever is 30 cm's fulcrum to center of gravity of the weight), with this design, it will use 750 grams * 10.5 cm's of
    work to reset the weight. If all 4 weights retract as the wheel rotates, Conservation of Angular Momentum predicts the wheel will accelerate or spin faster until
    the weights move outward. This design is the simplest one to test and could work.
    I will explain this week how using pulleys will allow for a controlled movement of the 2 weights that create an over balance. That and why Scottish Rules Football
    is awesome ! Have trouble getting I in America so I guess it's the Super Bowl for now.
    As for building, the frame work shown in reply #10 or what I had built would work fine. Since the frame creates no energy, less is better.
    For "spokes" .6 mm thick wood with a top and bottom piece 1.2 mm thick would allow for mounting pulleys or just provide a study frame.
    With the 2 weights that create the over balance, they can be moved from the side.


    Jim
    Last edited by James_; 6th February 2017 at 05:43 AM. Reason: rewrite one sentence

  4. #18
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    @All,
    Hopefully you will understand this. I will give everyone a couple of days to think about it. If all 4 weights are retracted by the "drum", the over balance remains. All that happens is that the weights move closer to the axle/axis of rotation. What is easily over looked is that when the 2 opposing levers drop, they will only need to lift the top weight.
    An example of this is if a 750 gram weight drops 15 cm's. When 2 weights drop, that is 1.5 kg * 15 cm's, the work lifting a weight that can be done. This allows for a 750 gram weight to be lifted 22.5 cm's. 1/3 of the work would allow for velocity.
    How this changes things is if a 750 gram weight is retracted 15 cm's by using a "drum", then the 2 levers only need to drop 10 cm's and lift the top weight 15 cm's. Since the work to reset an out of balance lever would be 7.5 cm's * 750 grams, then an equal amount of force would come from the over balance. This simplifies the design considerably.
    And with a drum, it retracts a weight by resistance. As a line wraps around the drum it pulls the weight closer to the drum with no work being done. I am going to work on a spreadsheet for the fun of it. That way on designs using more mechanics (levers, pulleys, etc.) an idea of how fast it might rotate (be expected to) will be known.
    And for lifting the top weight, Bessler did say it "pops up" and lifting it at a ratio of 2:3 would allow to levers to lift it to 75% of the height possible.


    James_

    p.s., since the levers would drop 10 cm's lifting a weight 15 cm's, a minimum of 750 grams * 5 cm's
    of torque would be a minimum amount of force. One lever would be in balance and one would be
    out of balance. we only need to consider the out of balance weight/lever for purposes of work that needs
    to be accounted for.
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    Last edited by James_; 7th February 2017 at 05:12 AM. Reason: change pictures

  5. #19
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    @All,
    With the 2 diagrams, they show rotation from (top center) 10:30 (45° BTC) to 12:00 (0° TC). This movement shows the weight(s) gig from a over balanced position to balanced position.This allows for momentum to be generated (spin of he wheel accelerates).
    Because the wheel accelerates, angular momentum can be conserved. This is what happens when the weights move to a balanced position. This will require timing just as a car's engine has ignition timing. By separating movements, it will be easier to understand
    how they work together.
    The brown piece between the 2 long levers allows them to work together. This means both levers will be lifting the top weight only.
    The drum or (black) ring will retract the bottom (lower) weight. After the top weight is lifted, then the "ring" will retract the 2 weight on the levers. And when this is happening, more angular momentum (r/2 = 4v) will be conserved.


    Jim

    for the time being all weights are 750 grams with an outside radius of 60 cm's.
    I will go slowly to give everyone time to consider the motion, mechanics, etc.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #20
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    With these 2 images, it becomes apparent that the timing of the top weight needs to be changed. The 2nd image shows how the levers would be positioned to start lifting the weight moving towards top center. The weight moving towards bottom center will not be lifted by the levers. The drum / ring will lift it. This transition is where people can expect to get confused because weights that work together normally do not work independently at the same time.
    This is what allows for angular momentum to be conserved. This is where being able to animate drawings will help to show the proper movements.


    Jim


    edited to add; what is not shown is the levers dropping in the single image. As the wheel rotates, the lever on the left will drop
    10 cm's as well as the one on the right. This will only lift the top weight.
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    Last edited by James_; 9th February 2017 at 06:41 AM. Reason: change image

  7. #21
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    It will be slow going making different drawings to animate the motion of the levers. I think once I can do this then everyone will have a better understanding of why I like it.


    Jim

  8. #22
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    <cite></cite> This is about some of the "history" that Bessler may have included in his work. The attached image shows a picture of Bessler and one of his drawings.
    I will explain how some of is drawings when considered differently ay help to explain or demonstrate his motion.

    " Further demonstrations regarding the possibility and impossibility of perpetual motion
    NB. May 1, 1733. Due to the arrest, I burned and buried all papers that prove the possibility. However, I have left all demonstrations and experiments, since it would be difficult for anybody to see or learn anything about a perpetual motion from them or to decide whether there was any truth in them because no illustration by itself contains a description of the motion; however, taking various illustrations together and combining them with a discerning mind, it will indeed be possible to look for a movement and, finally to find one in them. "
    <cite>- Johann Bessler, cover page of Maschinen Tractate</cite>

    Portal:MT - BesslerWiki

    One story associated with the lyre is that Hermes invented it but it was Orpheus who made it sing.
    Lyre - Ancient History Encyclopedia


    With Bessler, if he was successful then he invented the perpetual wheel and it would be those who make it now who help make it to sing.



    Jim

    edited to add; I seem to encounter a buffering problem but can work around it

    edited to add; Bessler did say he as asked if he was Orpheus and replied that he was not.
    <cite></cite>
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    Last edited by James_; 11th February 2017 at 02:09 AM. Reason: correct spelling

  9. #23
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    With Mt 26, it is a good place to start. This is because if a person understands this part of Bessler's wheel then everything else is much easier to understand. This is because the weight wheels >

    o. 26: This is somewhat different from the previous model, but it can be described simply: A are levers which are interrupted at B and equipped with weight-wheels at C. The weight-wheels run in a channel E and are attached to the cords D. As the diagram shows, one side is heavier than the other. Behind this problem one looks for an augmented problem." <dl><dd>- Johann Bessler


    > move inward by the use of a drum or ring. Then when they move outward it is because of inertia. When tis is realized then the over balance crated by these movements allows for excess energy.


    Jim
    </dd></dl>
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  10. #24
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    The 2 images shows some of what Bessler worked with when building mills. The grindstone if 1 meter in diameter allows for a weight 2.07 meters from the axle to be pulled in to 0.5 meters by the wheel rotating 180 degrees. hi means all weights would be 90 degrees to the edge of the grindstone and the axle, right angle.

    added; tis changes things slightly but he Basra wheel might be close example for a basic build. They didnt think of sin a grindstone. The weights are moved inward by the ension on line much like tether ball.
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  11. #25
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    The 2 images shows how rotating a design shows how it makes sense. The top weight would be lifted by the 2 opposing levers dropping while the bottom weight is retracted by using a "grindstone". I will show how these 2 weights move by working towards an animation. I am also working on a spreadsheet to calculate net force or torque and estimate rpm's.
    As for a perpetual design, this is where it begins. With 2 levers dropping an excess of force will be realized. This is for a basic design to test a theory. And as everyone has seen, it can be made more complex.



    Jim
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  12. #26
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    I've read what Automata is (Thanks Niel) and technically this isn't it )
    Still I may need to admit myself into the hospital (self inflicted wound) It seems the media in the U.S. doesn't care if a doctor puts someone together wrong because doctors don't care if they do.
    I will be doing some more work on the drawings to show how the bottom weight is retracted and the top weight is lifted. These last 2 things happen independent of each other. That's why there will be extra or free energy.

    With the design, the levers will not be scissored. And by using a 1 meter radius, the design can be easily scaled down and 100/2.54 = inches in a meter.

    Jim
    Last edited by ubeaut; 16th October 2017 at 02:02 PM.

  13. #27
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    @All,
    You guys are not familiar with my work. And the design I will be posting will allow for an easy enough build, then maybe more people will find what Bessler did interesting.
    I do believe I will be able to simplify the basic design so if all a person has is a drill and a jig saw, they might be able to build one. I will start showing the design tomorrow. I have been working towards a basic animation and on spreadsheet for myself.
    The build design will require one round piece of wood for the wheel. It can be called a disc as well. 2 smaller round discs will be needed as well. They will be mounted on the stand and will not rotate. 2 levers will also be needed, they will rotate with the wheel. The 2 levers will be connected to each other and will work together.



    Jim
    Last edited by ubeaut; 16th October 2017 at 02:08 PM.

  14. #28
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    With what I've posted so far, if when the 2 levers lift the top weight is changed then there should only be balanced and over balanced motion. This means that when the top weight is within 30° of bottom center, the op weight would be lifted.
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  15. #29
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    The image with different colors shows how to make a wheel wider by stacking arc segments. This will allow for levers and weights to move inside the wheel.
    The image of the wheel is an approximation.
    The "framesupport" I added is for around the outside of the wheel or between and outside sections.

    edited to add;with 1.2 cm thick plywood, 5 pieces stackd = 6 cm or 2 1/2 inches. With the 2 weights that move at an angle, a slot can be used if they roll or drawer
    slides if they are pulled. How the levers will be mounted will be shown next.



    Jim
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    Last edited by James_; 19th February 2017 at 06:05 AM. Reason: add more information

  16. #30
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    This link is to a trebuchet. The weight being lifted will follow a similar path. What makes this interesting is that when both levers start to drop, the weight will have mass but will be weightless as far as the wheel itself goes. This is because of the location of the pulley lifting the weight.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hpwwotSDeZA

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