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Thread: Bessler's Wheel

  1. #31
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    This drawing shows how both levers are connected. The 2 lines will go through the hub. This is where making a hub the same as the frame strengtheners will allow for this. While it is simple it will allow both levers to operate the same hoist. Pulleys will be needed to guide the line to the top of the slide for each weight.
    When the levers drop lifting the top weight, the line to the bottom hoist will become slack.
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  3. #32
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    I am going to quit working on this until I can afford electricity and a trim router. There is a simple design that uses 1/2 x 1 1/2 x 10 inches to make the rim and 1/2 x 1/2 x? with 1/4 x 1 1/2 x? to make the spokes and levers.
    With a trim router it will be easier to fit the pieces together. Even making spacers to keep the rim square would be easier because a 1/4 x 3 x? could be drilled or routed to lighten it.
    That'd be similar to what I built but much simpler. It'd probably look better as well.
    I am going to see if I can find a cheap router. Hopefully I'll find one.

    Jim


    edited t add; will try to find a storage unit with light bulb or plug outlet.
    Last edited by James_; 22nd February 2017 at 02:04 AM. Reason: add info

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by James_ View Post
    I am going to quit working on this until I can afford electricity and a trim router.
    I am going to see if I can find a cheap router. Hopefully I'll find one.

    Jim
    G'Day Jim, A number of my USA & Canadian woodworking mates talk highly of Craigie lists for buying good second hand tools... just a thought... Cheers, crowie

  5. #34
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    @All,
    This is as simple as it gets and yes, if you want you can build it. It does violate the Keel Effect however.
    What has been over looked is that balance in Mt 2 is achieved when weight A is t axle level and there is no weigh B.
    Using the retraction method I posted, on I believe Bessler used works at a right angle to the grindstone and axle. With
    what is shown, the weight a B is loaded from a ramp. This means it does not roll to it's location while on the wheel.
    If ME is watching this thread, maybe he can make a simulation ?


    Jim

    I'd like to Thank my brother Paul for
    helping me. I'd like to think his help
    allowed me to realize this simple concept.

    And crowie, Thanks for the encouragement.
    This design for however simple it is shows how an overbalance can be maintained.
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    Last edited by ubeaut; 16th October 2017 at 02:12 PM.

  6. #35
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    This diagram shows how it can be tested. By having a weight at 3 o'clock rotate the wheel and having the weights being retracted by the grindstone roll inward. How much will it rotate ?

    With something like this inertia, conservation of momentum and conservation of angular momentum can be tested. This is because about everything I've been posting is affected by one or more of these principles in physics.
    And if things go well then everyone will see it's not as complicated as it sounds.

    Jim
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    Last edited by James_; 23rd February 2017 at 08:09 AM. Reason: add comments

  7. #36
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    With Mt 6, it shows a ramp being used to move a weight from the left side of the axle to the outer part of the wheel on the right side. I will go into some explanation in how this allows for an overbalance. I think once explained there might be a lot of face palms and that's okay. It has been 300 years and no one has managed to make sense of Bessler's drawings yet.
    An with a demonstration of how momentum and inertia figure into basic design then when using levers to lift weights, that too will be easier to understand.



    Jim
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  8. #37
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    With the diagram, the math is as follows;

    will need to edit to add the math, time limit on p.c.

    A bit simple but is what the diagram shows.
    A + B < 1
    C < 2

    At the position shown, about 1.4 N-m's of net torque. This is equal to about 150 grams of force @ 1 meter.

    What is not being considered is conservation of angular momentum. Theoretically that will increase the amount of net force.

    The ramp is on a decline of 6 degrees. I will show how weight wheels (Mt 26) can work in this design.

    I have mentioned before about a health problem I have. I think my colon has ruptured. If so I will need surgery and won't be able to do anything for 3 or 4 weeks.
    I'll probably go to the hospital this weekend and ask them to find out.


    Jim
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    Last edited by James_; 26th February 2017 at 02:57 AM. Reason: start of math

  9. #38
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    I changed the amount of movement to be no more than 45° radially. You can see the difference it makes.
    Mt 26 shows scissored levers moving wheel weights. With this specific concept, the weights can roll into and the out of the wheels.
    The top shows a way that wheels can be rolled outward and inward. It will take a little thinking to understand how the weight wheel works or can work.
    With the ramp, if I is actually built then when an empty slot passes it, a weight can be released. Watch the game Mouse Trap.
    Still what is being son now is to help understand the other 2 configurations I posted. And if it turns out it can work then that I okay.
    This is why I need t be healthy.


    Jim
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  10. #39
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    The 2 links are to some builds I have done. I think Bessler might have used water because many of his drawings show bellows. With water, there is no opposing weight.
    The math is basically the same as far as work goes. This simply means how much work does it take to create an overbalance. This is why conservation of momentum is so
    important. In the last post, the 2nd image sows how a + b is relative to weight1. At the same time in Mt 26, if weights are retracted using a grind stone then B is an elbow.
    This is where it might be necessary to retract both weights o the 2 opposing levers. This would allow for conservation angular momentum to add force. This is where
    1/2 the radius equals 4 times the velocity. Yet everyone would be looking for the force to come from an overbalanced weight and not from how it's momentum is conserved.


    Jim


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMHtEVdmJnQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNGw46sG6EA

  11. #40
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    This is a short thread that the forum owner moved into the fraud section.
    besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6966

    Tomorrow I will post a 4 levered design that uses pulleys and a grindstone. The prevailing thought will be that overbalance accelerates a wheel from 1:30 to 4:30 (45* ATC, degrees after top center to 135* ATC, *= degrees).
    Then retraction (conservation of angular momentum) from 135* ATC (4:30) to 135* BTC (7:30).
    With 4 working weights, one will always be over balanced.

    Jim
    Last edited by James_; 1st March 2017 at 05:00 AM. Reason: correct spelling

  12. #41
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    I'll have to apologize for using the metric system. After all, I do live in America.
    If 4 levers are used and the center of gravity (CoG) is 1 meter from the axle when in the outer position, a weight can be retracted 15cm's. The diagram shows 2 levers ( 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock) dropping 10 cm's each. This allows for the top weight to be lifted 15 cm's.
    The sign considers 35 gram as an acceptable weight to use.
    If the drawing I rotated 80 degrees then the levers would be in position before dropping.
    The drum in this deign dos not rotate with the wheel.


    Jim

    With what is shown, it shpould start accelerating. If so, no reason it wluldn't work.
    Because 3 o'clock is over balanced, 6 & 12 are balanced. This allows for a net force. And if 6 accelerates as it is retracted (conservation of angular momentum) then it's relative mass decreases.
    And if all of this is right then Bessler probably didn't realize this part of his work.
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    Last edited by James_; 2nd March 2017 at 10:12 AM. Reason: add what I like about it

  13. #42
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    By fixing all but the bottom in a permanent position this can be tested to see if the wheel accelerates.

    Since all the rigging might be a lot of work, testing this would show if the retraction method works or not. All the weights except for the bottom can be fixed
    in their position. Then it would be seen if the wheel can accelerate some while retracting the bottom weight. If so then a complete build might be worth the effort.
    And with the grind stone, an idea of how it works and can be set up would be known. And for a test the build doesn't have to be pretty. This means the retraction line can be screwed to the grind stone. Then if it retracts the bottom weight while maybe generating some force that would be known and is what this concept is based on.
    A simpler test is to test the retraction method by itself. And if a dish scale is used to measure the force to lift the bottom weight then if it lessens relative to how fast the
    test wheel is spinning. This would show if conservation of angular momentum works in this configuration. And that would probably be the first thing that needs to be done.
    And using 2 pieces of 7 mm thick plywood would work. A wheel can be cut out using a jig saw and then 2 pulleys can be mounted so the weight can be retracted as mentioned.


    James
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    Last edited by James_; 5th March 2017 at 03:35 AM. Reason: to add some comments

  14. #43
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    True genius must have a touch of madness...

  15. #44
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    A simple test to see if lifting both weights has any merit is as the 2 drawings show. Math can be used to show it can work and that it can't work. It all depends on how the force of the top weight in the 2nd drawing is calculated.

    @Kiwi, hopefully I only have a small touch of madness.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ2X9SANsME

    edited to add; in the 2nd image the top weight is to the left of center. Is it's force calculated by 11.5° and have a force of only 75 grams or does only it's distance from TC (top center) times mass matter ?
    If it does then it would show why the grind stone might be needed. The over balance to the right is 7.5 cm's and the top weight has a basic force that is further from the center line of the axle going either up or down. And this is where having levers on the opposite side of the axle from it's weight should decrease the force it takes to rotate the top weight. This is because the fulcrum would be rotating which would shorten the distance the weight travels while being capable of doing the same amount of work.


    Jim
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    Last edited by James_; 6th March 2017 at 06:37 AM. Reason: add comment

  16. #45
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    To do a little math for the previous post;
    if the top weight is 75 grams * 10 cm's and the weight at 9 o'clock is 375 grams at 42.5 cm's.
    375 grams has 3.67749375 newtons of force.
    The top weight has 0.735 newtons of force
    The 9 o'clock weight has 3.12 newton's of force.
    This is about 3.85 newton's of force. The descending side has 3.675 newtons of force.
    This let's us know the grind stone needs to be used to retract the weight at 6 o'clock. And this is why
    that specific item needs to be tested. If it can retract a weight using less energy than it takes to lift a
    weight then an important observation will have been realized.
    With the grind stone, the path of the weight being lifted is shorter. This alone will decrease the
    amount of work necessary to lift a weight. And if angular momentum is conserved as well then that
    would also decrease the amount of work necessary to lift a weight.


    James
    Last edited by James_; 7th March 2017 at 06:54 AM. Reason: correct the math

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