Thread: Aussie plywood

Go on Mike, tell us what you really think

Richard
planning a similar route

My experience also, and Andrew will deal with your personally. I've been working with mine for the past month, and it's excellent quality and very light.

Freight wasn't all that cheap to Maitland NSW, but given the distance involved it was to be expected. Andrew has done his homework and the freight price was cheaper than all the other quotes I obtained.

People who know me understand that I have a tinge of green in me as I drive a car that uses 100% bio fuel and doesn't need oil changes. Therefore it was also good to know that his Joubert ply is more environmentally friendly than most others and the dust from working it is less hazardous also.

Hello everyone,

There seems to be a bit of a semi-promo happening here in this forum for a particular brand of imported ply and the distributor - or it could be just me incorrectly reading it that way (sorry if its just me).

In fairness to the Australian industry I thought I'd suggest people at least also consider the genuine Australian marine ply product, considered by almost every pro builder I have talked to as being the "Rolls Royce" of marine ply.

Australian marine plywood is manufactured to the AS/NZS 2272 - 2006 standard, has a permanent Type A phenolic bond, is certified to 'Super Eo', is branded "EWPAA Tested" and has the F-17 stress grade classification.

Imported stuff can't be stamped "EWPAA Tested" unless it goes through very extensive and controlled testing. BS1088 ply does not have predictable structural performance and as far as I have learnt there is also a huge difference between the AS/NZS 2272 - 2006 standard and the BS1088 standard. I won't get into this too much because I'm not qualified enough.

Manufacturers of AS/NZS 2272 - 2006 standard marine ply get very upset if people think their ply is just to the BS1088 standard. AS/NZS 2272 - 2006 standard maine ply should never be compared with BS1088 stuff.

The other plus is the Australian marine ply is made from Hoop Pine resource (a specie with excellent properties for marine application and aircraft construction). This stuff is 100% plantation grown and managed by the Queensland Government's commercial plantation forest grower, Forestry Plantations Queensland (FPQ). It is a fully 100% sustainable resource.

The above info I know to be fact with the Austral Plywoods marine ply product we have purchased ourselves, so I don't know whether its the same with all other Australian manufactured marine ply.

There is a notion that the very best of marine ply is going to cost an arm and a leg above the imported stuff. It is true the genuine Australian marine ply manufactured to AS/NZS 2272 - 2006 standard, stamped "EWPAA Tested" and certified F-17 graded is more expensive but not by as much as people may think.

Anyway, just in the interest of balance and fairness I thought I'd let people know there are marine ply choices available and some of those choices represent absolute superb quality.

Cheers for now

G'day HP,
Thanks for the detailed info.

In regards to the selection of imported plywood over a locally manufactured product I don't believe anyone will dispute the quality of locally made marine grade Hoop ply. The reason the imported product listed here is greeted with enthusiasm is that it is some 30% lighter than Hoop and Gaboon ply has historically been favoured for building lightweight boats but you probably know that already.

For some time the quality of imported Gaboon has been
inconsistent making it difficult for builders particularly professionals who have their reputations to think of to source product they can rely on. Hence the notification here that Joubert ply is available at affordable prices is well received.

Oz Hoop ply certainly has many boat building applications.

Cheers
Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for that. Yes, the Joubert ply was on my short list but without any guarantees about structural performance, without the "EWPAA Tested" stamp and without any official stress grade certification or classification I just wanted to play it very safe for my own build. Easy to get light weight marine ply, not very easy to get maine ply that meets all those standards though. The Hoop Pine is not classed as a heavy wood specie to begin with so the weight factor difference was not really a concern for what I'm building.

For me personally assured quality was by far the most important factor but of course may not be such a high priroty for some where even the smallest weight reduction is what they are after.

Cheers for now

I think most forum members are aware of the excellent Australian made ply products available. There is no disputing the quality of the Aussie Hoop pine product, but it has its limitations. These have been discussed extensively in these forums, but the main problems are the adherance to the 1200X2400 sheet size only and its weight, which is about 1/3 heavier than Okoume.

I would most certainly buy the Aussie product if it were comparable to the "other product", especially sheet size. As for the alternatives, unfortunately, most of the Asian stuff purporting to be quality 100% Okoume marine ply, is not up to the standards it represents to be. Some builders have used the Asian made stuff successfully, but its variable quality carries risks that some of us are not prepared to accept.

For instance, I have been corresponding with other boat builders and we have investigated the hoop pine product extensively. Unfortunately, it seems the common denominators that rule it out are most often weight and sheet size, not the quality of the product.

In my own boat, apart from the use of the "other French made product", all the other timbers used have been Australian plantation timbers, ie. Hoop pine and Paulownia.

We boat builders have been known to be fussy with our timber selections

Sorry about the following long post to all

Hi HP,

I'd like to weigh in a bit here to make a few observations about your post.


Firstly let me say that as you are aware it is my business that imports the Joubert plywood into Australia you can choose if this colours my response. I will just try and balance up the comments made.


I will say that I find it a bit frustrating that there is so much misinformation around about ply standards and I wish people would actually get a copy of the standards and read them.

As a professional boat building company, we have a need for various timbers that are application dependendant. For example, we generally use heavy hardwoods for traditional boat keels and framing and use lightler species for say clinker planking. The same deal applies to marine plywood. Some designs have theri performance designed around a particular all up weight which can only be achieved by using lightweight materials. Multihulls are a case in point as are small ply racing dinghies.

Some other designs all for complex compound shapes in plywood that cannot be achieved in heavier and stiffer plywoods without kerfing or steaming the timber.

So in our business we use two types of marine plywood - British Standard 1088 gaboon ply for our lightweight deigns and AS2272 hoop marine when weight and stiffness is not an issue. My favourite AS ply is made by Austral and we have used many sheets of this and have found, as you have, that the quality excellent. A year or so ago we gave up using gaboon as the importers here in OZ were price driven and basically stopped bringing in decent plywood ( but still charged the same!). What using hoop meant for us as boat builders was that some design shapes were difficult to achieve and the boats were built above designed weight.

Being above designed weight not only affects performance but also in the case of a power boat, can actually reduce the passenger capacity of the vessel which is not a good thing at all.

I want to make a couple of comments about the quality of Gaboon ply.

Firstly what you have said about EWPAA is interesting. The EWPAA is an industry association founded by manufacturers and according to their website the mission of the EWPAA is to assist in maximising the medium to long term financial benefits to all of its members.

Whilst I have no doubt that testing is accurate and above board, it is not really as transparent as certified third party product assessment from a standards assessing body such as Lloyd's Register.

Your comments on BS1088 not having predictable structural performance is a direct quote from the Austral website. Obviously the local ply manufacturers have a vested interest in saying this. Whilst Austral could be making a generic swipe at poor quality, non-compliant plywood stamped BS1088 out of South East Asia I doubt that this comment can be applied to ply that has been constructed to this British Standard 1088-1:2003. Standard compliant BS1088 has been used for many decades not only for marine craft construction but also for light aircraft construction. If it had no predictable structural performance Naval Architects and engineers the world over would not be able to calculate hull stresses!

With regards to AS2272 being the " rolls royce" the standard actuallty allows for the following;

- unlimited sound knots in core veneers
- worm and insect holes in core veneers
- open splits in core veneers
- filled splits and edge joints in face veneers
- sound pin knots in face veneers

As a comparison, BS1088-1:2003 allows for

- no sound knots in core veneers - only pin knots
-worm holes <1.5mm diameter in core veneers
- closed splits A maximum of 2 per metre width of panel area with a total
length of 200 mm

There are lots of other similarities in the standards and I would suggest you could probably view them at you local library or your ply supplier should be able to discuss the standards with you.

What we generally see in Australia is Gaboon or Okoume made as "lighweight" BS1088 ply however the BS allows for a variety of species of which Okoume is one. In the "Standard" BS1088 more durable species such as Sapelle are used which would outlast our old hoop pine any day.

I can assure that there is absolutely no issue with quality of the plywood we are importing from France as you allude to in your post. Our plywood is Lloyds certified for marine craft construction (and is used by some of Europe's to production boat builders such as Beneteau), carries FSC certification and was one of the first marine plywoods to be CARB compliant for formaldehyde emmissions. All clients are provided with a copy of the Lloyd's certificate of compliance to the standard which we had sent to you with your quote. I do find it interesting that you had offered my company "excellent exposure" of our plywood on your webite if we "sponsored" your project (which we did not). I see that Austral is listed as a supplier on your website http://mytrailersailer.com/suppliers.html . Did they provide you with any sponsorship? A bit of "semi-promo" going on here is there???

We have not actively plugged the product here as the product speaks for itself. I think other forum members were happy to discuss it as they, like us were frustrated at not being able to get decent gaboon ply for the projects.

So HP in the end we all make our own choices based on the research we do. I think your decision was the right one for you as you felt from your research that hoop ply was going to satisfy your requirements. If you would like any further information on the standards for Gaboon or Hoop ply send me a PM or give me a call - I'd be more than happy to discuss.



Good luck with your hartley 21 build

regards,

AD

Thanks for the explanation. Yes, I am starting to see how complex this whole issue is. I was certainly not meaning to put down the product you are selling. My apologies if it came across like that.

The thread subject is "Aussie Plywood" yet I didn't see much in the way of anything about "Aussie plywood".

It is great for Denman Marine and the imported Joubert ply you are selling, but I didn't think anyone would mind if I mentioned there are other choices out there, namely Aussie Plywood, just to keep a fair balance to this thread. Boral in N.S.W. also have a nice marine plywood product that's highly respected within the industry as far as I have learnt. Austral Plywood is closer to me and seeing as though the plywood from both meet those standards I have mentioned then I save quite a bit on freight costs with the Austral product.

You've taken quite a heavy handed swipe at the Australian plywood product, in particular the standard that Australian marine plywood is manufactured to...

Originally Posted by bloggs1968

With regards to AS2272 being the " rolls royce" the standard actuallty allows for the following;

- unlimited sound knots in core veneers
- worm and insect holes in core veneers
- open splits in core veneers
- filled splits and edge joints in face veneers
- sound pin knots in face veneers

As a comparison, BS1088-1:2003 allows for

- no sound knots in core veneers - only pin knots
-worm holes <1.5mm diameter in core veneers
- closed splits A maximum of 2 per metre width of panel area with a total
length of 200 mm

There are lots of other similarities in the standards and I would suggest you could probably view them at you local library or your ply supplier should be able to discuss the standards with you.

What we generally see in Australia is Gaboon or Okoume made as "lighweight" BS1088 ply however the BS allows for a variety of species of which Okoume is one. In the "Standard" BS1088 more durable species such as Sapelle are used which would outlast our old hoop pine any day.

... I find this a little out of place. But what you've done is invited a right of reply from the experts in the Australian plywood manufacturing industry. Something I am positive you would jump at if the situation was in reverse.

Like I have said I am no expert but after having looked closely at the AS/NZS 2272 - 2006 standard, the F-17 stress grade classification, all stamped "EWPAA Tested" and having proof it is all from a fully sustainable resource, that's what sold me. My decision to buy Australian was further pushed along by a number of boat builders I talked to who all said the Australian product is amongst the very best there is - this is truly what I was told.

I guess I am proud of the fact that we locally manufacture this type of high quality marine ply and didn't hesitate to want to mention this in what is a thread about "Aussie Plywood" but looks to be all about Denman Marine and your Joubert brand of imported ply - nothing wrong with that as I'm sure the Joubert ply you are selling is great, but a little fairness and balance achieved by someone mentioning the actual Aussie marine plywood product I thought might not go astray.

I am now looking into what epoxy to use and this is also looking like it is a lot more complex than what first meets the eye. But I think I'll just be reading what people think rather than making any comment about it or what I learn!!!

Chees for now

Originally Posted by HappyPappy

I guess I am proud of the fact that we locally manufacture this type of high quality marine ply and didn't hesitate to want to mention this in what is a thread about "Aussie Plywood" but looks to be all about Denman Marine and your Joubert brand of imported ply - nothing wrong with that as I'm sure the Joubert ply you are selling is great, but a little fairness and balance achieved by someone mentioning the actual Aussie marine plywood product I thought might not go astray.

I am now looking into what epoxy to use and this is also looking like it is a lot more complex than what first meets the eye. But I think I'll just be reading what people think rather than making any comment about it or what I learn!!!

Chees for now

Ah the vagaries of forum communication.

The originator of this thread is PAR a yacht designer and builder from Florida USA who makes a valuable contribution to this forum.

The purpose of the post was to alert boat builders in Australia that there is a new source of quality Gaboon in Australia not necessary "Aussie Ply" but "Ply supply in OZ"

Anyway good luck with your build an interesting project.

Hi m2c1Iw,

Thanks for that. I've learnt quite a bit myself from some of the things PAR and others have contributed here in these forums. It really is an excellent resource for those like me who have a genuine interest to learn.

Cheers for now

Or perhaps this is worth a look,

Goldcore Light: Quality Lightweight Plywood. Plywood for Marine, Motor homes, Construction and Commercial interiors.

Cheers,
RR