Thread: Building a "50th anniversary" Hartley TS21

Hello Simon,

Thanks for mentioning my site Simon.

We've had to wait a while for the summer wet season to end (Cairns NQ) so we have only just kicked off.

Anyway, starting at the beginning, the building stock ...



More on this beginning stage: Hartley trailer sailer building stock and frames.

There's a bit of a reason behind the website - to hopefully encourage some interest in the home building of small easy-build plywood trailer sailers in general.

Cheers

Peter

Just noticed the image tag doesn't work, it shows fine when I first wrote the message or editing it but fails to show the image in the actual message.

I'm doing something wrong here, any hints?.

Thanks

I note from your website that you're building a hybrid of the Mark 2 and Mark 3 cabin tops. Why not build the original if you value a large flat deck area? I doubt you'll be disappointed with the cabin space inside of the original TS21.
Which hull form are you building?
I think Colin Brookes designed the Mark 3 some years after Richard Hartley's original, and I wonder if it's really a different boat.
I know the Mark 3 version of the TS16 is different enough to invalidate it from Championships here in Australia.

Hi Simon,

I have both TS21 MkII and MkIII plans and can confirm they are identical with the exception of the sloping cabin top and straighter bow shape. I have had this confirmed from the Hartley Boat Plans people and have also painstakingly compared the plans which are the same for both MkII and MkIII.

Whereas the TS16 MkIII I have heard is a different hull shape and thus a different boat to the TS16 MkII.

But you raise a very valid point relating to original design vs modified of which I'd like to explian in detail if I may Simon.

If we wanted to stay precisely in accordance with the original 1961 Richard Hartley TS21 design (incidentally MkI plans are no longer available) in every possible respect we would not be able to use epoxy saturation, coatings or gluing. There are other areas too that will be different such as the use of a two-way braking winch to raise and lower the centerplate, a small bridge deck, raising the cockpit floor to make it self draining etc.

Many of the modifications we are building to were approved by the Hartley TS18-21 Association Inc. back in the 70's/80's which had the official approval of Richard Hartley himself.

I am in communication with a Mr Des Web who has very kindly agreed to advise me on the build of the 50th anniversary TS21 as we progress. Des and Richard worked closely together in the 70's and 80's regards improvements for the TS18 and TS21. One of Des's many suggested improvements was the masthead rig configuration for the TS18 and TS21, an idea Richard Hartley approved himself and included as an official rig option in all his TS-18 and TS21 plans/designs. Apparently Richard and Des got along famously.

Des is in his very senior years now and we are extremely fortunate to have his considerable Hartley TS21 knowledge, expertise and experience available to us. He is a very friendly and genuine fellow and is the closest thing possible to having a connection with the heart and soul of the Hartley TS21 design.

I have a family member that has a minor disability that impedes ability to climb. We also plan to make the vessel available to the odd community group from time to time that might see some physically challenged persons in attendance. But this is only an intention so far, I really have no idea what is required in this area at the moment (legal and public liability insurance issues etc) and I don't even know whether they would be interested in sailing on only a little 21' trailer sailer anyway. But the point is there will be a further minor modification to the transom. The outboard well (in the plans) will be slightly lowered and will become part of the transom, thus providing an easy "step" into the cockpit. The outboard will be on a bracket. The transom normally slopes inwards towards the waterline, ours will be cleanly vertical or perhaps slighly sloping in the opposite direction (outwards) if this is what is needed to maintain the same stringer line shape as in the plans. This will give it a slightly longer waterline length so it will remove it from being an "A"class TS21 anyway.

Cheers for now.

I know there are as many variations of Hartley as there are owner-builders, with each having their own individual touches. We were on a Hartley cruise 2 weeks ago on the Goulburn River with 5 other TS16's, and a stranger would need to have looked hard to realise they were all the same basic boat design.
Your research is really impressive, and I'm sure your build will be equally so.

The Hartley 16 Mk 2 and the Hartley 18 Mk3 were designed by Colin Brookes when he became a partner in the firm. They had a straighter bow and narrower entry than the Richard Hartley original designs, and therefore are slightly faster. The cabin shapes are lower at the front enabling a better jib shape.

The masthead version of the 18 and 21 were an unfortunate development. The staysail is a great disadvantage unless the boat is not equiped with a spinnaker. Richard Hartley did approve the design saying he sold the original plans and what the owner did afterwards was up to them. However his firm agreed to include the masthead rig on later blueprint sets sold in addition to the original 5 sheets with the note 'as approved by the Hartley TS 18&21 Association of Victoria'. The design did not include a spinnaker. The same additional sheet had the plans to adopt the hull design as a displacement launch with an up to 50hp inboard motor.

The Masthead version has proved to be slower than the fractional rig for racing purposes once the latter was improved by sheeting in at 11 degrees and going for the maximum sized roach. The Masthead version has a design disadvantage in having to sheet out to the gunwale unless the hull is modified to have the shroud chainplates on the cabin roof. This is outside the Hartley 18/21 YC club rules.The masthead rig was in vogue for a short period on yachts some 30 years ago when the large overlapping genoa was not counted in the sail area. It was a rating advantage not a efficiency advantage. At the Hartley18/21 size this can be seen in the International Micro class [5.5m loa] where the fixed sail area has been shown to be best split with a blade jib and large roached main. On the Hartley 18 TS Plan there is no limit to the size of the main sail roach as it is left 'to the discretion of the sailmaker'. Thus the fractional main can be up to 25% larger while no extra area can be used on a masthead rig due to the backstay. If the masthead mast is modified to include a crane then area can be increased by some 7% above the specified 95sq feet. The only advantage of the masthead rig is using the staysail as a storm jib when reefed above 35 knots as the boat is marginally better balanced.

Regarding having PWD on board, there is no insurance problem. Several Hartley 18s I know of take them out for social sails as a community event. Just make certain they all wear buoyancy visits and you have a contingency plan if a problem does occur. I have run national championships for Sailability members and surprisingly the main concern was hats and sunscreen, as several drugs have side effects in unprotected sunlight. One of my favourite photographs is of a jetty with 12 wheelchairs entitled 'gone sailing'.

I must admit surprise that Hartley 16s can look different as the class rules are very tight. In comparison the 18 has two different cabin lengths, and two different rig versions [even the fractional rigs can look entirely different ranging from a triangular main with a 3.2m foot to a high roach square top main with a 2.1m foot] while at least two boats have the Mk 3 streamlined cabin on a Mk2 hull.

Hello Paulmaximus,

Extremely interesting insight, thank you very much your comments.

I am right now planning the sail rig plan and am leaning towards the fractional rig with side stays from cabin top to allow a nice clean deck swept jib and genoa .. and an easy walk-around. I have been pondering throwing in an extra stay for a small staysail anyway just for the fun of it. Some within the TS18/21 community swear blind it can add up to a .5 of a knot increase in speed in some circumstances.

I don't want a backstay and despite it not being a major consideration I have to quietly admit to wanting a rig/sail plan most capable of delivering her a good turn of speed.

She is a trailer sailer/swing keel version so we can't go too much in the way of sail area. She will have a small MPS in place of a spinnaker.

We are not building to class specs for a few reasons so this gives me a little flexibility to incorporate the odd modification/improvement or two. So please feel free to suggest anything you might think worthwhile. Your knowledge of the Hartley's is very impressive.

Cheers for now

Peter

The masthead version of the 18 and 21 were an unfortunate development.

Richard Hartley designed his trailer-sailers as cruising boats for families, not as racers. Reading the briefs of these designs in his books will confirm this. Therfore as cruisers, the masthead rig, with staysail, gives us more options to sail comfortably in a variety of conditions. My family appreciates this. So too do friends (in their eighties) who are still cruising in their TS21.

The Masthead version has a design disadvantage in having to sheet out to the gunwale unless the hull is modified to have the shroud chainplates on the cabin roof. This is outside the Hartley 18/21 YC club rules.

I cannot find this rule within the club specifications. A good thing too, since I know of four boats, mine included that have the chainplates on the cabinsides.

Hi Peter,

One of the points to keep in mind is the cabin shape. If you intend having the jib track well inboard on the cabin top [say 12 degrees], the standard sail shape does not fit well. I drew a cabin shape, built to the Hartley 18/21 YC of Victoria club rules, which optimised their tolerances. The original cabin had rotted. The new shape included having the cabin built maximum aft, the front low and the back high. While the individual adjustments were small the overal impact was worthwhile, especially in the short cabin form. As a result the clew of the sail set near the deck giving an efficient shape. It was the nearest possible to the later more streamlined cabin shape designed by Colin. The track was fore and aft, there was a barberhauler for trim adjustments for wind strength and point of sailing. A sheet turning block at the cabin side helps cleating by having a constant angle to the crew for any setting.

Some friends experimented against each other with both fractional and masthead rigs, and the former performed quicker on all points of sailing, except in 30 knots plus when the masthead had a slight advantage when set with a full main and working jib. Thus a friend, who is a very experienced sailer in keelboats and has just bought a Hartley 18, is changing to the fractional rig from the existing masthead and getting rid of the backstay, lowers and baby stay.

It is possile to make a very efficient fractional rig mainsail for all conditions by maximising the roach size. If built for cruising then the main can be designed in accordance with the original Hartley plan where the battens and size of roach are at the sailmakers discretion. The original sail plan was drawn for cruising in Auckland strong wind conditions, so a large roach is comfortable un-reefed to 25 knots. It can be reefed in 20-30 seconds anyway by vang off, scandalising the boom, easing the halyard to a mark and tensioning the sail to shape on the rehooked downhaul.

Paulmaximus

Originally Posted by mob

Richard Hartley designed his trailer-sailers as cruising boats for families, not as racers. Reading the briefs of these designs in his books will confirm this. Therfore as cruisers, the masthead rig, with staysail, gives us more options to sail comfortably in a variety of conditions. My family appreciates this. So too do friends (in their eighties) who are still cruising in their TS21.

I fully agree that Richard designed both the 18 and 21 for cruising, he derived them from traditional fishing boat not racing yacht shapes. The plan is actually entitled "a plywood family cruising yacht." The Hartley 18' Owners Association of New Zealand first pushed for serious racing within three years of the Mk1 plan being published.

The staysail was in part a result of having a baby stay to prevent mast inversion with a masthead rig in strong winds. The additional lowers prevent the mid mast excessively bending forward and the babystay prevents bending the other way. The staysail was a substitute for the storm jib. If you are cruising shorthanded and expect very strong winds and steep waves the staysail is an advantage if left furled. I have a hundred year old 38' lwl gaff rigged cutter where the jib and staysail are both permently rigged on a furler, as going forward in rough seas or ocean swells is always hazardous. The disadvantage of having a babystay is short tacking with an overlapping jib, such as in harbour or on tidal rivers. Overall the masthead rig with a backstay, spreaders, lowers and a baby stay results perhaps in a too rigid spar akin to the 'birdcage' rigs of the early 20th century.

Originally Posted by mob

.
I cannot find this rule within the club specifications. A good thing too, since I know of four boats, mine included that have the chainplates on the cabinsides.

According to the drawings and measurements approved by the now Hartley TS 18/21 YC for the masthead rig, the shroud and lower take off plate is bolted to the gunwale 1' 2" aft of the centre of mast line. If you are cruising you can fix the chainplates anywhere but reading the class rules and plan approved by the Yacht Club, changes from this position are a modification for racing rating purposes, in particular under the YA ATYSBR.

Unlike the fractional rig the mast has spreaders 24 1/2 " long. Moving the chainplates in changes the sideways poke of the mast tending to give a sideways S shape to the mast closing up the slot and backwinding the main. Even if chainplates are on the cabin side, so adversely effecting efficiency and structural strength, the jib/genoa is still sheeted too far out for maximum pointing ability. This can be shown both in practice and by developing a Polar Diagram.

To quote from a leading authority "The masthead rig is largely an anachronism left over from days when the racing rules gave favored treatment to boats with masthead rigs. This is no longer the case, but cruising boat design was adversely influenced for years by handicap rules, even though most boats never see the starting line”.

Apologies for a third comment. Regarding the views on the use of a staysail, in our family sailing library I have a 1884 book on handling yachts for the education of gentleman owners when paid hands were not used. There is a reference to a poled out working staysail, when using a ballon staysail, to balance the boat when running. That latter sail was often flown from the jib halyard on a cutter. In a Hartley 18 this would be the equivalent of poleing the staysail with the genoa well eased out, rather than flying a spinnaker while cruising. The book also explains how to use a 'Lizard' to keep the sail from skying, in modern terminology this is the barberhauler trimmed to a belaying pin.

It would be possible to add a temporary baby stay on a fractional rig to serve the same purpose. I tried it ashore today on a friend's boat using a Tasar jib hosted on the pole uphaul and tacked to the king post. There are cruising possibilities.

Originally Posted by bodmin69

Try this - 64af7304u32zaq8yq87ep-qh5z.hop.clickbank.net/?tid=BOAT

How can we get to it?