Building the Flint

newey · #1 27th Jan 2010, 06:57 PM

Building the Flint, rowing skiff designed by Ross Lillistone of Bayside Boats.

It wasn't until I recently chanced upon a friends John Welsford designed dinghy he had built in his backyard that my desire to build my own boat was rekindled. Ten years or so ago I toyed with the idea of building a boat, but then the plan was always to build a 40' catamaran - fortunately I respected the difference between desire and capability. Anyways, 10 years later I have a wife and children and have been thinking about getting a boat - something like a 12' tinnie and outboard - just something to get on the water with or wet a line. Part of the problem with that is even second hand a decent boat and motor is too much.

After seeing Vince's effort and hearing how he has rowed around the local area with wife and children onboard I started thinking, and researching, and thinking some more. Then I rediscovered websites with info on stitch and glue construction and various plywood designs. In particular Mark Bowdidge has a number of designs that I like (they look just like aluminium boats - not sure what Mark would think of that comment), and given the build simplicity, I figured even I could do that. I didn't want to jump straight in however, and figured something simpler that could be rowed, powered with an outboard or even sailed would be the best bet - and if it could be cartopped even better.

Anyhow to cut a long story short, I liked the Flint designed by Ross Lillistone - I think what did it was the bow entry, and without wasting anytime I purchased the plans. So here I am. One set of plans, a tonne of enthusiasm, a head full of ideas and questions on the best way to build it, and a deadline. Deadline - hmmm - everything I have read thus far suggests that setting a deadline just doesn't work. Anyway I want to have the build completed by Easter (2010).

After reading other peoples build experiences I decided that I too will share mine - its not something I've done before so hopefully it doesn't turn out to be too monotonous.

So there is no point waffling on - lets get to it. I welcome any comments or suggestions to help with the build and stay on track.

My first task will be to clear a suitable spot in the garage. I recently finished a 6m x 9m garage (if you ask my wife its still not finished - thats another story) so have plenty of space, if it didn't keep filling up with #####. I have a half built mezzanine floor that I should also think about finishing someday!

Secondly, I need to source the materials. Choices, choices. Do I spend $100 per sheet on Gaboon or AS2272 hoop pine, or $50 per sheet of BS1088 Meranti or Paciifc Maple. I want to try and keep costs to a minimum, but I'd also like to keep the weight down. I have a number of old balcony rails (~190mm x 50mm) made from oregon, or so I believe, that I plan to rip to make the gunwales and futtocks from - though it will depend on its quality. And no doubt I'll be down to Bunnings for bits and pieces.

I don't think progress will be too quick to start with, but hopefully I'll be able to keep enough info coming to maintain interest (yours not mine) in the build.

Regards,

Ken

rob540 · #2 27th Jan 2010, 08:25 PM

Good on you Newey, and good luck with the build. The choice of ply will in the first instance come down to whether Ross has designed the boat for maximum use of the imported sheet or the Hoop. They are different sizes. Looking at his builds they look to be Hoop (1200 x 2400 instead of the slightly larger BS size) If that's the case there is more choice. You'll get lots of opinions, but in a small recreational hull, my view is that the weight difference won't be noticeable, (gee dad I can't row this boat, the ply is too heavy) unless you intend to race someone else's Flint, staking the family honour on the result. A lack of voids in the ply structure, and good quality veneers are important things though. Hoop is a lovely product. Aussie made. I also hear that Plyco have another Aussie made ply in stock (haven't verified). But they also stock Gaboon and others, and are in Fairfield Melb. I found their service excellent.
And of course the good French stuff is available from our Tassie member (Denman Marine).
I used Pacific Maple ply for the bulkheads in my build and the stuff I had was very good- and very cheap by comparison. I didn't find a great difference between it and the Gaboon I bought for the hull panels, except in the price.
Well that gives someone something to disagree with, anyway.
Get stuck in!

newey · #3 30th Jan 2010, 09:39 PM

Well, I have made a start - sort of. Certainly nothing to write home about as they say, but I have started ripping the old oregon balcony rails I salvaged. I have even included a couple of photos - more to see that I can post them rather than what they show.

There are a few knots, but only a couple, and anyway, should provide a good opportunity to practice a few scarfs. In all, I am quite happy with the quality of this timber - given its appearance beforehand wasn't great.

I plan on using this timber for gunwales and futtocks.

RossL · #4 31st Jan 2010, 10:33 AM

The choice of ply for a boat like this depends more on the quality of the ply construction rather than its weight and/or timber species. The twist in the bottom panels up for'ard is pretty serious, and any voids in the ply may have a bad effect (although I've had no problems myself, nor have I had any reported to me). The order of the construction stages must be followed properly when carrying out the initial stitch-up. In particular, it is important to lay the two bottom panels "inside face-to-inside face", stitch them up, and then open them up like a book or magazine. The result should be a nice, fair bottom shape with those sharp and concave sections at the bow.

My favourite ply is AS/NZ2272 Hoop Pine (or Pencil Cedar) but in a simple boat like this the BS1088 ply types work fine. At the moment I'm using a BS1088 supplied by Australian Wood Panels (branches in all capitals, and also Launceston, I think). 2440 x 1220 6mm is about $44.00 (less if you get it in pack lots - you can usually push the definition of a pack when buying). It appears to be a tropical hardwood - maybe Keruing - anyway, it is MUCH better quality than some of the Chinese Gaboon that has been floating(!) around. Haven't weighed any sheets yet, but will report back soon.

As for the panel utilisation, having been frustrated in the past with Phil Bolger's superbly efficient nesting on 2440 x 1220 - i.e. I couldn't use Australian 2400 x 1200 in certain situations - I have deliberately drawn my plans on the basis of being able to cut developed panel shapes from 2400 x 1200. If you look at the Flint plans, you will see that the big rectangular border drawn around the panels is 1200mm wide, and the length is based on 300mm increments. The same applies to the other plans in my small range.

There are quite a number of Flints in use world wide (well, Australia, New Zealand, U.S.A.) and based on reports so far received, they are popular with their owners. The one I built took about 60 hours from memory.

Ross Lillistone

RossL · #5 31st Jan 2010, 10:47 AM

What should have mentioned in the previous post was that you don't have to use 2400 x 1200. By that I mean that I've drawn the plans so that you can get the panels out of sheets with a minimum size of 2400 x 1200, and that bigger sheets such as 2440 x1220 and 2500 x 1220 work just as well.

Ross Lillistone

newey · #6 26th Feb 2010, 02:05 PM

Well, I have finally made some more progress. By chance I scored 2 sheets of Okoume plywood for free - not sure of its quality. Only potential issue is it wasn't stored as well as it could have been - under cover, but exposed to the elements, so it doesn't lay perfectly flat - some edges are bowed. I'm hoping its not a problem, but then again they do say you get what you pay for. Given its only two sheets I still need to buy a couple more - I wasn't planning on Okoume, rather BS1088 Meranti or Pacific Maple.

I have started to mark out and cut the various panels. All in all this has been relatively straightforward. I have decided to use the Carnell/Payson technique (using fibreglass instead of plywood buttstrap) for butting the panels together after I have cut them out. I was keen to use scarfs, but the resulting panel would have been too big and difficult to manage. Hopefully this approach won't be a problem in terms of producing accurate panels.

On the costing front I have decided not to make price a deciding factor in terms of which products to use - you can get bogged down worrying too much about costs. I figure for a first time build its better to focus more on the process and get that right and worry about doing it cheaper with latter builds. And in the end its likely only to be around a 10 - 15% saving anyway.

Costs so far:
Plans - $70
Glass tape, Bote Cote (6L), fillers, pumps - $260
Plywood – free (so far). Will likely need to spend another $150.

I’ll be impressed if I can limit the costs to under $500. More likely $600 – still happy with that.

I have some photos of my progress, which I’ll put up soon.

newey · #7 29th Mar 2010, 10:40 AM

Well I am finally getting a chance to update this thread. Fortunately I have been making more progress on the build. I had originally set myself Easter as a completion date and over the last 4 days I have been working flat out trying to finish it - its still touch and go at this stage and I am trying to avoid rushing things. That said I have succumbed to purchasing some dressed (tassie oak) timber from Bunnings for the transom strengthening and gunwales. We have a camping trip organised to the Yarrawonga on the Murray so I'm keen to use that as its maiden voyage.

The last time I updated this thread I was in the process of marking and cutting out panels. This has now been completed with only the seat tops left to cut out.

The first problem I came across was with the bottom panels. Once stitched there is a tremendous amount of force on the plywood when they are opened up, to the point where I had the plywood crack at one of the stitch holes. I unstitched it and tried to reinforce the leading edge with glass. This didn't help much and could be a reflection on my glassing skills. I ended up persisting, restitched and with the use of a lot of clamps filleted the bow which seems to have done the trick.

Next I tied in place the bulkheads and again has some difficulty with the one closest to the bow given the amount of twist in the plywood needed at the bow. It was a slow and careful process getting it in the right position. The other bulkheads went in ok. I did need to remake one of the bulkheads after gluing on the wrong side frames - don't know what happened there.

As I mentioned previously I joined the bottom panels using a butt joint with glass reinforcing rather than plywood. With the side panels I thought I'd give scarfing a go. As it turned out it was pretty easy in the end - other than the huge panel I ended up with. I think this is the way to go in the future.

I'm trying to remember all the issues I had along the way as I have now completed a fair bit of the build and am being bugged by the kids while I type.

In short I have three days to complete (I accept it wont be painted yet) the glassing of the bulkheads, seat tops, and gunwales as well as fairing, glassing and finishing the outside. And then there's making sure everything is coated in epoxy - its going to be tight.

I have been taking photos along the way and will try to get them up this evening as well as more build detail.

newey · #8 9th Apr 2010, 07:42 PM

Well Easter arrived and I had to concede defeat with regards to completing the build - probably a good thing in the end as part of getting there is the journey so they say and this is more a learning experience than just ending up with a boat. Had a great time on the Murray - am looking forward to the next opportunity with boat in tow.

I have included some pictures of the build this time. The first is just the marking out on the ply sheets. This is where I marked out the bottom panels separately and then butt joined them. The result was ok (next 3 photos) but I ended up having more success with scarfing so will use that in future.

I now need to work out how to included all the pictures with comments between them.

newey · #9 9th Apr 2010, 08:17 PM

I now had the 2 bottom panels complete and in the process of drilling all the stitch holes. I used a small jig to help make it quicker. I know cable ties are probably quicker but I did have an issue getting them sufficiently tight - I may give wire a go at some stage.

Next the bottom panels were stitched together and opened up. This is were the troubles began. While trying to put the first bulkhead in there was a bit of creaking going on which was concerning me, as well as the force need to open out the panels. It turned out some of the creaking was in fact cracking. It turns out (or so I believe) that the freebie ply I got wasn't so great (all it was cracked up to be). The two sides weren't flexing equally, and all the trouble I was having was with one side in particular. Not sure why as the two front halves came from the same sheet.

The best way I found to deal with this problem was to unstitch the bow, insert bulkhead 1 and then bring the bow back together. This worked pretty well but involved a stack of clamps to get the shape right. While clamped I then had my first go at messing with thickened epoxy - surprisingly this wasn't too bad. The end result of all this mucking around was the bottom panels joined, in the right shape and with bulkhead inserted.

rob540 · #10 9th Apr 2010, 08:20 PM

Good progress newey, and the photos will help us see what you're up to.
For adding them in amongst text I select the little icon at the top of the reply box- it looks like a mountain in a square (fifth from the right). You copy the url of the photo into that and it inserts the photo wherever your cursor was left.
(I have to load the pics onto Flickr, go to 'all sizes', scroll down to url. - but using a photo sharing source saves all the hassle of compressing pics)

Hope that makes sense!

newey · #11 9th Apr 2010, 08:36 PM

Thanks for the tip Rob. I'll need to setup a Flickr (or alternative - will investigate) account first.

As I mentioned I had a go at scarfing - it turns out it was a lot easier than I thought. Most of the time is taken in preparation - make sure blades are sharp.

I don't have any photos of the finished panel. It did move slightly during gluing (about half a mil) that I didn't discover until after but it was even so no big deal.

One thing I have noticed is the 6mm ply I bought is actually 6.5mm while the Gaboon is about 5.8mm.

Cost update:

Plans - $70
Glass tape, Bote Cote (6L), fillers, pumps - $260
Plywood – some free. 2 sheets 6mm $80, 1 sheet 9mm (only transom - so plenty left) $50.
Needed to buy some more fillet powder and plastic mixing cups (ran out of recycled honey tubs etc) $23.

All up about $490.

Another $50 or so on miscellaneous.

newey · #12 9th Apr 2010, 08:49 PM

The sides have now been cut out from the scarfed sheet and attached. It is now starting to look like a boat. It was somewhat tricky trying to get the sides on - had to enlist the other half's help. I thought the sides were lined up with the bottom but it wasn't until I was nearly finished stitching them on that I discovered that they didn't match the bottom (first photo), so I guess this boat is not quite as long as it should be

. This hasn't turned out to be a problem.

I think I have written more in the past hour than in the last 2 months. Its time to have a beer I think and come back tomorrow.

Daddles · #13 9th Apr 2010, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newey

Its time to have a beer I think and come back tomorrow.

No, have the beer and then come back. How do you expect to be incoherent if you're sober? (though many claim I manage it).

Looking good mate. Don't worry about taking your time to do stuff - jobs are only quicker if the result is good and you feel satisfied with your efforts. Sadly, working 'quickly' usually works against this.

You can be fast, accurate or satisfied - choose two

Richard

zaneroni · #14 30th Apr 2010, 03:15 PM

Its looking pretty good. where are you at the process now? I've been in communication with Ross for few weeks and finally got him to customise the Flint and stretch the plans out to 17.5 ft. I should have the plans in about a week, then the fun will start.
I found a place in town that sells Merenti for about $52/ sheet. I was orginally going to use exterior grade A/C thinking this is my first build and I didn't want to put the investment. But from everyhting I learned and read, it seems to be a fairly simple process for a handy person to undertake.
Anyway. Thanks for sharing some of the difficulties you had, it will make it easier for me when I start the build.
Magd

newey · #15 30th Apr 2010, 11:06 PM

I have actually progressed further than my last post suggests. As I had said earlier, I went through a stage working flat out to have it ready for an Easter camping trip, but unfortunately in the end there was just too much to do. I have all the photos from the effort, but just haven't had the time to post an update (new job, long hours and family commitments etc). I hope to post a photo update shortly. I have the seat tops, gunwales and entire outside (fairing, glassing etc) still to do, along will a few smaller bits and pieces.

I'd certainly be interested in seeing how a 17.5 foot version turns out, seeing that you will need to join 3 sheets and not just two - feel free to share you efforts.

I too wanted to keep the costs down being my first build but like you said its certainly not difficult to build so the chance of ruining the timber (and wasting the money spent on them) is pretty slim. You also don't want to end up having put in an effort to achieve a result you are proud of only to be disappointed with the quality of the materials.

Ken.