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Thread: To clinker or not
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2nd May 2008, 07:09 PM #1
To clinker or not
Hello All,
Its official I am seriously afflicted with this boat building lark and have been reading up on some designs for a future project.
So far my limited experience is with ply but I am smitten with these beaut Gartside examples or perhaps even a wherry and started thinking about a full on test of my limited woodworking skills. The pox and ply is good fun but I am sort of longing to shape wood if you know what I mean.
So a few questions for the experienced
1. Cost of good quality materials (esp in Adelaide) between glued lapstrake and clinker, I am guessing at least 4 times. Is that about right?
2. Glued lapstrake easier for beginners and would be a good way to lead up to clinker construction, perhaps?
3. Forget it until I've built a few more stitch and glue style?
4. Lastly a completed boat that would live on a trailer between outings, is it being a little too romantic to be thinking clinker or if one does a reasonable quality build will it result in a boat that won't sink when launched. How long for the joints to take up?
Cheers
Mike
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2nd May 2008, 07:51 PM #2
You can have stitch and glue (sorry Mik). I much prefer a planked boat.
Building the hull is no more than a quarter of the job and after you've done two planks, it's more boring than demanding. Seriously, glued lapstrake isn't hard and seeing you're in Adelaide I'm happy to come along and cock the job up for you
Forget clinker. It's nice and romantic but ...
- clinker relies on your workmanship to keep it water tight where glued lapstrake (which looks the same and works the same) relies on poxy ... which loves filling gaps
- clinker is potentially pricey whereas ply is relatively less so, though still bloody expensive. Seriously, if money is a problem, build a model aeroplane instead
- the mistake has not been made that can not be fixed with poxy ... which clinker doesn't use
- clinker needs ribs, with glued lapstrake, you pop the boat from the mould and that's it
- glued plywood boats live happily on a trailer where clinker is a bit more demanding (prefers to live on the water).
And the kicker -
Glued plywood lapstrake is the traditional choice (for planked boats, there other other forms of course). Traditional boats were built using the most efficient and appropriate materials to hand. The advent of good ply and good poxy rendered solid planks and close tolerance building obsolete. Clinker is 'old fashioned', not 'traditional'.
Glued lapstrake is easy (in a boaty sort of way where NOTHING is easy), satisfying and gorgeous. Best of all worlds in my eyes.
Richard
is my bias showing?
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2nd May 2008, 10:37 PM #3
Howdy Richard,
If you build that PDR that you have a plan for I have a suggestion for you ...
If you find the build trouble free then you must call the boat "Nothing"
Then your last statement will make sense whether it was easy or not!
MIK
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2nd May 2008, 11:11 PM #4
You're overlooking the mucky corner fillets and all that farting about with tape. Having build two stitch and glue boats, plus a third that managed to combine stitch and glue with overlapping planks plus re-taped the seams on a hard chine boat (built on frames), you can have your stitch and glue. It's an effective method and serves a myriad of purposes but ...
I love building with lapstrake, it soothes the inner boat nerd or something. Stitch and glue is just a way of getting things to float in formation. I also love the soft look of lapstrake, which slab sides and sharp corners can't match.
But that's all personal and in the end, provided everything does float in formation and the designer had half an idea about what he was doing (see, I avoided the inevitable tangent - are you proud of me?), you'll have a great boat.
I've read a lot of posts on forums about ways and methods of building glued lapstrake and by cripes dem yankee gents make hard work of it - some of them just love complicating things and this is something where you can complicate it to your heart's content.
The big thing is clinker vs glued plywood. If you really MUST have ribs, fit then to a glued lapstrake boat - I've seen them look really good and I've seen them look like some daft git has glued fake ribs to a boat that didn't need them. Poxy and ply is a much more practical boat and a fair whack easier to build.
Mike, I'd seriously suggest you contact the Pt Adelaide TAFE and do their six month boat building course. It'll teach you everything you need to know to build a boat, you'll have a group of other incompetants to learn with (and that does make a difference) and while you don't come out of it with a half built boat like you do with Mik's 10 day courses, the long, casual nature of the build allows a lot of stuff to seep in ... and gives you a lot of time to mine the instructor's experience as you struggle with your own boat at home The alternative is, of course, to do one of Mik's 10 day courses. Better still, do the TAFE course to get the confidence and the basic knowledge working in a group, then do Mik's course to get your own build well and truly kickstarted.
Richard
dead tired and barely coherent - forgive me, the cat won't
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2nd May 2008, 11:31 PM #5
Richard,
I can't think of anything I'd rather do than a boat building course....... but commitments you know. Speaking of schools I have been trawling and came across this site, talk about inspiration those blokes are having way too much fun.
Mmmm might be able to fit one of Mik's in though. Think I need to make about three thousand more mistakes by myself first.
Cheers
Mike
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3rd May 2008, 12:02 AM #6
The TAFE course is every tuesday night for two school terms - I'm assuming they haven't changed the night, it was well set in epoxy last time I spoke to Moose (the bloke who runs them). Lots of fun but yeah, you need to have the nights free ... or most of the nights, it's not like school where you 'have' to attend every lesson, it's a case of 'you get out what you can put in'.
Nothing wrong with muddling through with a bit of help from your mates, even hinderance from your mates is fun. I don't mind coming to help do stuff - mistakes don't hurt as much when I'm making them on someone else's timber
As I mentioned, I'm tired so can't drag together your building and sailing experience. Assuming you're a novice at both, you couldn't go past building a PDR - great lesson in boat building (a four deck man o' war is just a slightly more complex version of the same thing) and a great little boat to boot, even for experienced sailors. You'll learn all the skills you need in a modestly priced package and can then go sailing with us other reprobates.
And while the round bilges and overlapping planks make for a gorgeous boat, there is a lot of elegant simplicity in craft like the GIS. There is a lot to be said for getting a boat on the water quickly because a more complex build can spend a lot of valuable boating time just sitting in the shed - ask Midge about his Eureka canoe
Richard
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3rd May 2008, 12:24 AM #7
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3rd May 2008, 11:51 AM #8
Lapstrake, stitch'n glue, clinker......
Nah! I'm happy to do what my dad did do......
good old Hartley boats.... or Glen-L boats...... or Clark Craft boats......
Cut out the frames, join them together, slap sheets of ply over the top and there you have it...... a boat........
PS Daddles, little need for complex bending and steaming"May your dreams of today
be the reality of tomorrow"
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3rd May 2008, 02:56 PM #9
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3rd May 2008, 03:38 PM #10
Daddles
Therein lies the beauty of building a boat yourself.
The orginal plans had it as an open boat..... I added my own signature to it by doing a deck... a curved part at that, which required a nice bendy bit... I didn't need to do a steamed length of timber but wanted to try out the concept and learn a new skill....... It could have problably been done another and needless to say easier way..... but that isn't a challenge or as much fun..... besides..... then I wouldn't have a steamer unit to loan to another needy person would I !!
Home this arvo if you are around the place......."May your dreams of today
be the reality of tomorrow"
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3rd May 2008, 04:10 PM #11
Plywood or real timber clinker/lapstrake.
Part of it is a time consideration. The glued lap does save you time. With canny material buying the trad rivetted or clenched nail can be cheaper (or way more expensive).
Also if there are long periods between boat use it can be hard on a trad built boat which relies partially on plank swelling to keep the water outside the boat.
MIK
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3rd May 2008, 04:41 PM #12
Another issue is your personal attitude to what you are doing. The build is an important part of it for me, which is why I'm stuffing about with coamings at the moment - assuming a coaming is necessary at all, a lump of ply would do the job in a weekend and be perfectly serviceable. Similarly, Mik's GIS can be built fast and basic with good materials by someone for whom the sailing is the thing yet I'm quite sure Mik has tales of people who've put a lot into the build to produce GISs that are works of art.
The same doesn't quite apply to lapstrake - as soon as you start on a build with that many bits you are saying that the build is part of the journey, but it's still possible to build a basic lapstrake boat or use exactly the same design to produce something far more fancy.
My own ambitions lie somewhere in the middle. I'd build one of Mik's designs for the sailing. As soon as aesthetics come into the picture though, I like planked hulls. I wouldn't build stitch and glue planked boats (as most of Selway Fishers are for example) as I don't like the hard join between the planks. To my eye, the overlapping plank is softer and more appealing (and Selway Fisher designs can be built lapstrake if you desire).
For that matter, Mik's GIS could be built with overlapping planks ala Redmond's Whisp if you wanted to.
Back to me again, my boats will always be 'work boats', not 'show boats'. I lack the patience and eye for detail to produce a really fine boat and am then too lazy to put in the work needed to keep them that way. I've seen boats at the Goolwa Boat Festival where specks of dirt needed a permit to cross the gangplank Not for me. Having said that, I'm not above putting in that extra effort of trying that extra technique in an attempt to build something that'll look really nice - if it doesn't work, you can always paint it Sixpence is an example of that. I'm trying to produce something that'll have enough brightwork to look stunning without getting tatty the moment I come anywhere near it. If my efforts fail, she'll still look gorgeous under a layer of paint ... because of the style of boat, the careful attention David Payne paid to her lines and because of the planked hull.
So it all comes back to who you are and what you value.
I would however, counsel making your first build a simple and fast design (which precludes anything Welsford and quite a few others that make that claim). I've had people argue with me on that, people who claim that most builders only have one boat in them and so they should build the boat they want. However, having suffered the pain of not being able to go boating because my boat is still being built, I value the concept of 'being fast into the water'. I also believe that you can only choose the 'right boat' by knowing how it will be used ... which you will NOT know until you are actually using it - that's hard when the boat's in bits in the shed. Build a quick design first so you can get that experience on the water and so choose the 'right' design based on experience rather than conjecture.
Mind you, there's no such thing as the 'right' boat as I keep proving with my fleet of misfits, all of which sort of do the job I'd like to do but don't quite seem right to me I think the 'right' boat has more to do with emotion than rationality, but you need to rationalise things before you can get control of the emotional side, but believe me, if you choose a design for rational reasons only, it'll be the wrong design.
And in reading all this, you need to remember that I'm a builder - the build is probably more important to me than the boating. If you have the reverse psychology, a lot of what I've been saying won't make sense.
Richard
(that's right, I couldn't get to the wood shops this morning because the lad had soccer so instead of building the boat, I'm pontificating. Don't worry, I'm about to go into the shed and break something )
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3rd May 2008, 09:48 PM #13
Well Richard what did you break?
Hm.... "most builders only have one boat in them"... hope not in my case. It's woodworking, the joys of using a sharp plane etc. and learning some skills that draws me to a traditional boat not to mention how good they look.
The time and money aspect scares me a bit and the fact I suspect I would be in over my head even on a dinghy but, I will do some more reading and thinking and learning and then plenty of ruminating.
In the mean time I'm also a boaty (dinghy sailer) so the PD will get me on the water quick, well fairly quick if I stop mucking around with cosmetics. Having discovered Miks designs I can't help agree with his philosophy make em as inexpensive and as light as possible and use em, with the added bonus of great looking boats.
So I guess I will keep day dreaming about having may cake and eating it too.
Mike
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3rd May 2008, 11:53 PM #14
As it happens, I didn't break anything ... though I am sort of glad this bit will be glued to the bottom of the rear seat inside a floatation chamber (it's the top partner for the mizzen and typically, bears little resemblence to what Mik told me to make ).
I think a good way of working is to get yourself to a point where your fleet does most of what you want, THEN you can settle in to build a really, really swanky version of the boat that's left. In my case, I think it'll be a very nice row boat of some sort. If I thought I'd have to time to get out and use it heaps, I'd be building Mik's rowboat now in time for summer, but reality has forced me to acknowledge that my rowboat will be little used (no time thanks to kids), so I might just build a really nice Acorn or something similar - it would definitely be a build project rather than an exercised designed to get me on the water.
Then again, I might not too
Richard
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