Thread: S&G, Glued Lap Ply, Lap Stitch???

Howdy Mikey,

I'd be suspecting that it wouldn't make enough difference to change you from one construction to another.

You can do a stitch boat using glass tape and then there would be less epoxy than in the glued lap. Much less.

The reality too is that every lapped seam might only use a little bit of glue, but you have to make up a lot more to make sure that there is enough in every join - you do have to clean up a fair bit of ooze. Putting less in the joins is a false economy as if you don't have ooze there is no way of knowing if the join is filled or not - and sometimes extra epoxy allows you to fair out problems with previous planks by not screwing down too tight.

Or you could run a fillet along the edge of each plank outside the boat to cover the end grain, as many do, and end up with more filleting than a simpler stitch and fillet boat.

The real difference between these different construction methods is the labour. Labour is not a problem at all if you are being motivated by the enjoyment of woodworking and picking up skills. But if you want to get the boat to the water the one with the minimum number of parts will always be faster (you have to factor in the parts of any mould you need to build the boat over too).

Choose the boat because you like it, the method fits you (do you want it FAST or do you want to learn and enjoy or a mix), it reflects your budget and the time available, and finally, if the plans fit your level of skill and knowledge.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

Mick,

thanks for the input. What's your opinion on the Lap-stitch method. It looks like a simple method to use and a great way to get a lapstrake boat in a hurry - at least that is what the company literature says. Have you had any experiences with it?

The kit I am considering is the CLC Skerry. Did I see somewhere that you had done an alternative sail plan for the Skerry?

Mike

Originally Posted by MikeyRoberts

Mick,

thanks for the input. What's your opinion on the Lap-stitch method. It looks like a simple method to use and a great way to get a lapstrake boat in a hurry - at least that is what the company literature says. Have you had any experiences with it?

The kit I am considering is the CLC Skerry. Did I see somewhere that you had done an alternative sail plan for the Skerry?

Mike

It seems to me just a complication of a simple building method. The same can be said of people who think you need a stringer along each plank landing in a lapstrake boat.

As far as I'm concerned, lapstrake (the way Iain Oughtred does it) is no harder than stitch and glue, there's just more bits and with four plank boats, not that many more of them either

Richard

Howdy,

I don't know at all. The whole CLC systems seem to work fine in general.

Be aware that often they don't sell the plan, and the only way to build the boat is to get a kit. At least with all their later designs.

Others are moving to this business model too.

So the wired lap ... If it saves using a mould to build the boat over then there will probably be some time saving if their wired up setup works well enough to hold everything together. If they use a fillet instead of timber in the stem and stern that is another substantial time saving - particularly if you haven't done it before - typically students in our classes find that bit quite tricky - even though we know it is very straightforward - they just don't have the faith in the marking method at the beginning to mark then GO FOR IT.

As far as comparisons in speed go - we see it all the time in the Duckflat schools...

Usually after 10 days the Oughtred boats go home with the hull shell complete and off the mould and the builder equipped with the skills to finish - the smaller boats of his design might have quite a bit of the internal furniture inside - experienced builders or two handy people would have the spars done for one of the larger boats too in the same time.

A Eureka would be ready for seats, have gunwales and inwales together but not glued in. A quick worker would have one almost finished.

Two blokes with not a lot of skills built the GIS hull almost completely and finished the spars and glued up and thicknessed the centreboard blanks in the same 10 days.

A couple of different CLC kayaks have been just about finished in the same time compared to a couple of Oughtred McGregor canoes that got the hulls planked up only.

A cedar strip canoe with two good builders not experienced with the method working hard got the hull faired and the outside glassed, then came back for three days to fair and glass the inside and glue the gunwales, inwales and breasthooks in (that was the paulownia one) - 13 days - with lots of sanding and finishing before final furniture.

Of course this is a pretty rare situation - to get so much work done in one slab for any of these boats.

Note how careful I am to say the sorts of people that were working on them - that's probably the biggest variable.

The time difference with the OUghtred boats is purely in the setup of the strongback and the lamination and shaping of the inner stems.

Interesting thing is that even though with Welsford's boats have a notionally simpler hull built around permanent frames the frames are so complicated to cut out and set up that you lose a lot of time in comparison with Oughtred there. With Oughtred you save more still compared to any planked hull because of the plan detail and forethought - he circumvents many of the problems because of the plan quality.

Judging by the CLC plans I have seen - the level of detail should be quite good.

Hope this give some kind of idea. There is quite a difference in time taken for similar size boats.

MIK

What do ya think of the Ness Yawl.
Coogs

Love all of Oughtred's boats.

Only defect I know of is some of his leeboards for his really small boats are a bit undersized and the boats sail heaps better with just another 6ins (150mm) on the bottom.

There is almost nothing I would dream of changing on anything that has a built in centreboard case. Nothing wrong with his rowing boats either.

You know he spent his formative years in Australia, don't you?

He knows about our light but strong boats and how to get seriously good performance.

And they are gorgeous. The methodology is all OZ but the looks are Oughtred's impeccable eye.

The plans are first class too.

MIK

Ness Yawl or Arctic Tern? If you was gonna build, which one would you
pick, Mik? Either or, I'm gonna build one. Yes, I agree. You strians are
good at boats. Coogs

Hey Coogs,

We'll be doing a Tirrik rigged as a gunter yawl shortly. Seems like a nice size boat for day sailing and not too hard to put together. I don't think you would get many on this forum that don't like Oughtred boats.

Mike,

MIK is right on the money. The difference in epoxy usage will be small between methods. Even in one method, different builders will use different amounts of epoxy but in the end, the cost of epoxy in any small boat is small when compared to the overall dollars.

Be wary of companies offering lightning quick build methods - mostly this is just marketing BS. The hull is only a small part of the overall build so do what the others have said and build the design you like regardless of method. If you buy a kit, you are locked in to the shape of all the planks and some other persons interpretation of what looks good. If you want to tweak the sheer just a little bit, you can't as the planks are already cut out.

If you wan't a similar boat that is really simple to build, look at the shellback dinghy by Joel White. Good plans and a lovely little boat. You will save a few bucks cutting the planks out yourself - easy job to do in a few hours. Plans are available at http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodi...mber=400%2D109

If you feel "challenged" by any of the build methods or feel that they are beyond your current skill set, don't worry, a few posts here will get any project sorted.

regards,

AD

Thank's AD for the comment. I like the Tirrick too. I like all of Oughtred's
work. Form follows function.
Coogs

Your too nice. I appreciate your help. Coogs

hahaha

Everyone says that form follows function. I can make tirrick look like a wreck with a few penstrokes - but it will handle just as good in the water.

They are independent. You can make something that works really well and make it look ugly - the PDRacer is a good example - sails like a rocket (for the boat size) - PAR said it looked like a steel concrete mixing tub.

Getting boats to work is getting a bunch of nonvisible proportions and ratios right.

And you can decide to make them pretty ... or not.

MIK

You are a joker, MIK. I like that. A term of endearment.

YOu know the real purpose of the Joker - or a Court Jester ....

To tell the truth the truth that others overlook!!!!!

But the good thing about me - is I can be wrong.

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

You can make something that works really well and make it look ugly

You can tell he's a disciple of Bolger can't you

Richard

Yes, but as Michael was quick to point out, it's the fastest sailing concrete mixing tub going.

I've always thought ascetics (which was the theme of the thread that caused my mixing tub comment) should be incorporated into design work. Bolger is famous (or infamous, depending on how you look at it) for making an ugly boat, that performs well or at least better then expected. I don't think this is necessary nor warranted, when a sweet sheer isn't difficult to incorporate. I'd hate to be thought of as the designer of "those ugly boats that do sail well". But this is me.

All the modern methods of construction require a fair amount of goo. These building techniques wouldn't exist without epoxy and fabric. The amount of goo is marginal across all the types. Glued lap has no fillets, but many more seams. Stitched lap (a silly thing to me) is the same, but with the added bother of stitches and thinner dimension laps, which limits the longitudinal stiffness, inherent in other lap builds. Taped seam has fewer seams, but thicker goo and usually fabric in the seams. So it all works out about the same as far as the "goo factor" is concerned.

The least amount of goo work of the modern methods is thick core, thin (or no) sheath strip plank. You have lots of strips, but these require very little goo to hold in place. If the scantlings are dimensioned properly, then the core carries the bulk of the longitudinal stiffness and the sheathing, possibly outside only, is just needed for abrasion resistance.

In the end, it's really what you think you'll feel comfortable with. Lots of folks are intimidated with fitting planks on a lap build. It not as hard as it may appear to the novice, but you don't know until you try. Strip is tedious, but easy, usually with less then ideal lumber, saving money. Taped seam or stitch and glue are easy, but the goo factor is high and you may find sanding fair, a chore.

What Michael touched on can't be over emphasized. Some folks can design a hull where the material "flows" nicely around her. L. Francis was very good at doing this, as are many other designers. Planking a Herreshoff design is a joy, because the planks don't twist too much or develop too much edge set, etc. Others aren't boatbuilders and wrapping material around their flanks is more difficult. I made this mistake on my first lapstrake design. The garboard was such a weird shape that fitting it was near imposable. I've since learned and changed the design to fix the problem, but you have to build or talk with the builder to know these things, which unfortunately, many designers are clueless in this regard. I'm luckily to have built many of my designs, so by pain and hardship (lots of cussing and beer too) I've learned how to shape a boat so the material "flows" around without much fuss.