Thread: Paint v's epoxy

I wouldn't epoxy unless it was to both sides. If you get a leak from the inside, you'll just have the same problem only harder to fix.

P

And epoxy doesn't penetrate the wood very far, no more than paint. If you damage the epoxy, eg scrape the hull, it's going to harder to repair. However, moisture is absorbed by the wood and once it seeps in under the epoxy, you get rot (paint breathes so you don't have quite the same problem -it's also more obvious because the paint starts to fall off whereas under epoxy, you get rot). I know a lot of people think that epoxy coating is the duck's guts, but I have my doubts, especially on an old boat.

On the other hand, there are ultra thin epoxies that do soak into the wood. CPES is one. The one we use here in Adelaide is made locally by Shipways (I think) and is called Timber Preservative. It's thin like water and that's what it'll make your eyes and the depths of your lungs do, but it's good stuff.

But for something old like your Hartley, sand her back to timber, prime properly and paint well. Methinks that is your best bet - it's the route I chose for Henry anyway.

Cheers
Richard

Hartley
You can thin [west system] epoxy with acetone and it soaks in to timber ,ply etc further than if you do this with the first coat . We have done this with the Moth my son is restroing. The other alternative is Timber Tuff another epoxy used in equal parts it is to soaks in fairly well and is available locally in Adelaide from a mod off south rd down the strret by West Thebarton pub.Friend of mine has used it a lot while repairing his clinker built yacht to repair rotten spots above the waterline and another has used it below waterline to repair areas before priming and anti-fouling.
If you want more details and exact address for Timber Tuff agent just reply to post

The thing to watch with thinning epoxy is that you can make the final product porous. When the thinners evaporates, you can wind up with tiny worm holes through the epoxy ... or so I've been told (by a number of sources actually). Still, as Stephen says, do this with the first layer, and then cover with full strength and you shouldn't have a problem. However, I wouldn't bother seeing there are alternatives around such as the products both Steven and I mentioned, mainly on the grounds that this epoxy game is a bit of a black art and I'd rather have a chemist make the guesses than me.

Cheers
Richard

Originally Posted by Daddles

It's thin like water and that's what it'll make your eyes and the depths of your lungs do, but it's good stuff.

I know this was in jest, but I get the shakes when I read stuff like it!! Epoxy is a cumulative poison, once you become sensitised you pretty much stay that way, and I've known guys who broke out in rashes just from entering a boat shed where fresh epoxy had been used, (and breathing what was left of the smell!).

Use a proper chemical respirator and handle it carefully.

Oh and BoatCraft's version is TPRD (Timber preservative Reactive Diluent) Don't use Acetone!! A properly thinned epoxy will maintain it's chemical properties when set, one merely diluted with a thinners will produce interesting results>

Cheers,

P

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

I know this was in jest,

Ahh, it wasn't in jest. The fumes are that strong. :eek: The only time I've seen it used, it stank out the TAFE workshop - that's a huge workshop with very large ventilation in the roof, a double garage sized door wide open and a wind blowing. The bod doing the application was wearing the full kit. For us homebuilders, this is an 'outside' job. But it's supposed to be bloody good stuff (flamin' wanna be).

Epoxy is one of those critters where you must always protect yourself from skin contact and if you are sensitive at all, from the fumes. People do get sensitised, some at their first contact, some after years of working with it. Once it's set it's okay, but I learned early about sanding green epoxy on a hot day (sweat and green epoxy dust = itching arms. I was lucky, it didn't get to rash status).

The other one is mixing the powder into the poxy. Just look at how light and fibrous that stuff is, especially West's 411 powder - this is why the West Systems videos have the blokes wearing masks, very similar to the mask I wear when mixing mine. Once it's mixed, you won't get too much dust floating around so you can take the mask off then, but it's nasty stuff.

Boat building - using sharp, dangerous tools to shape toxic substances into a craft that can sink and drown us. Hell, I reckon I'll call my next boat 'Darwin'.

Cheers
Richard

Well i was a boatbuilder, and i personally would sheath the hull..But i also have epxoy poisoning and once you have it you have it for good. And its not pleaseant at all. So take the advice of using all the protection you can.
Sinjin

I would Never use epoxy on an old timber boat unless you are going to sheath the whole lot inside and out (and this is impossible on an old boat) the water WILL get in and the rest is history, paint or varnish is the only finish you want or need and as mentioned earlier it is porus so the wood can breath. Epoxy is a great product, but not for covering old timber boats! There is nothing magical about epoxy it just horses for courses.
Colin

Sheating solid timber boats, you have to wonder why. If the boat is leaking then get it re-corked. But like Colin says you are really destroying that boat. If a solid timber boat can't breath properly rot will set in under the epoxy where it starts to part company from the timber hull and sooner or later it will. You won't know till it's to late and unfortunately there has been some really nice boats which are very old and survived very well untill some well meaning person decides to shealth the hull. Solid timber hulls are not like cold molded or strip planked. I think sheathing is a great way to go. But not on solid timber ever.
Sinjin

Over on the Weekender forum, there's a discussion about sheathing the keel. It appears quite a few blokes have made their keels out of one piece of wood, sheathed it with epoxy and glass, had the wood warp which cracks and delaminates the glass and hey presto, problems. It's a well worn argument this one - sheathing is great until the timber starts to move or you damage it. Tough stuff but once the water gets in ... Still, as some pundits point out, proper maintenance sorts out or spots the problems.

Cheers
Richard

Thanks to all for your advice. I have probably forgot to say one thing, and that is the boat is bondwood and will be used at sea, not on the river ie salt water. Would this change any views ??.
I apologise for not mentioning this originally. I just want to do the best for me and my Hartley !!

Regards
Darren

Hi

I am restoring a bondwood bay cruiser which I have had on a cradle for about 8 years. Just to reinforce the other remarks about "rot" - Rainwater had penetrated through cracks in the epoxy sheathing and the result was extensive rot of the ply to one side of the boat (cabin and hull above the waterline. The boat however is about 30 years old but it shows that you have to find a way to monitor leaks. The sheathing was only at the joins (ie where cabin joins gunnels etc) and I will prob resheath as I am not aware of any other suitable product.

I did use a two mix wood peserver then epoxy glue mix and filler mix to repair sections of the cabin some 10 years ago. I note these areas remain rot free

Take on board the comments re health issues with epoxy.

Good luck
john

I stripped and repainted Rana, my 30-year-old Hartley TS16 a couple of years ago.
The seams were deteriorated through age and damage, there was quite a lot of old filler falling out of the seams, and it was no wonder the poor old dear leaked.
I decided not to use cloth because I didn't think it necessary, and a ply boat as old as Rana is going to have movement, which the mat wouln't have tolerated very well. Sheathing the hull means turning the boat upside down, and all that cloth & resin is heavy. I thought about taping the seams for abrasion resistance, but didn't in the end. She has survived since 1974 without it...
After raking out all the old filler and loose bits of ply I wet the seams out thoroughly with Bote-Cote epoxy mixed with TPRD and replaced all the filler with epoxy & Fortifying Compound (love that name!). I then gave the whole hull a very thin coat of epoxy mixed with Sanding Filler so I could sand back to a fair (well, fairer) surface before painting. All worked well, and two years later there is no loss of adhesion the the hull.

All in all I think it was a good middle path solution, and I feel much more relaxed out on the water knowing that I know what's under me.

Happy sailing!
D

I stripped and repainted Rana, my 30-year-old Hartley TS16 a couple of years ago.
The seams were deteriorated through age and damage, there was quite a lot of old filler falling out of the seams, and it was no wonder the poor old dear leaked.
I decided not to use cloth because I didn't think it necessary, and a ply boat as old as Rana is going to have movement, which the mat wouln't have tolerated very well. Sheathing the hull means turning the boat upside down, and all that cloth & resin is heavy. I thought about taping the seams for abrasion resistance, but didn't in the end. She has survived since 1974 without it...
After raking out all the old filler and loose bits of ply I wet the seams out thoroughly with Bote-Cote epoxy mixed with TPRD and replaced all the filler with epoxy & Fortifying Compound (love that name!). I then gave the whole hull a very thin coat of epoxy mixed with Sanding Filler so I could sand back to a fair (well, fairer) surface before painting. All worked well, and two years later there is no loss of adhesion the the hull.

All in all I think it was a good middle path solution, and I feel much more relaxed out on the water knowing that I know what's under me.

Happy sailing!
D