Thread: West or Bote Cote ... what's your poxy ... and why?

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

Getting it from whoever Boatcraft pacific uses is probably a good option... if memory serves they have suppliers here... used to be Sorensons but I think theyre closed now well I cant find them in the white or yellow pages anymore

If there's no-one locally, why not order it direct?

P

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

Simple answer? No... Ive looked and searched but mate the closest is Welshpool and Bayswater... cant remember off hand who they are but will later... or someone will pop up and tell you

Shane is that in answer regarding getting west system closer to Mandurah? If so the marine suppliers in south terrace in Freo just near the Seaview pub sell west system.

Thanks again
I did find 1- 4L packs of West at Cross Electrics the other day and they had one type of filler ... no cloth or anything but could get us out of a hole if poxy was all that was needed.

Canoe design = similar to one I saw on the web but with my own touches ... designed on BearBoat Pro software ... neat stuff ... free & fun

The next will be a kayak straight out of Nick Schades book ... still tossing up to go with the more managable (for an amatuer paddler) Great Auk or the Beautiful looking Guillemot.

In the mean time the family canoe has it's priority looks a bit like the Green Valley Kipawa

Midge... that would probably be the way to go... depending on price differences that is as it maybe cheeper to drive up to Bayswater Freo or Welshpool and pick it up as compared to the price ex Adelaide or wherever

Lig mate I wasnt aware of that... no worries I generally get to the pub and well... sigh good pub that one but I will make a journey soon and cheek it out ahem meaning I will go there first THEN the pub!

Ramps... have you seen the Wee Lassie of Mac McCarthy? he of feather canoes? I like the thoughts of a strip plank rather than ply canoe... ive made a ply one and its great fun but well... canoeythingy was a hoot took all of a weekend to put her together paint and launch and many a great time was had too by gar! I still have the moulds and strongbacks for both Wee Lassies (12ft and 14ft) somewhere out in the shed... mmm may have to revise that upon reflection I think I will need to recut the moulds as its been a sufferably long time since I cut that chipboard... must need replacing... ahem I have the strongbacks for both the 2 Wee lassies out in the shed THAT I KNOW!

Damnanblast this bein crook!!! :mad:

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

Midge... that would probably be the way to go... depending on price differences that is as it maybe cheeper to drive up to Bayswater Freo or Welshpool and pick it up as compared to the price ex Adelaide or wherever

I dont' know what the distances are for you, but I'm 200k from the factory, and delivery costs me $8.00 which is less than it costs to drive to Woolies to get the groceries!

cheers,


P

Originally Posted by onthebeachalone

• I needed a light, non-sagging, sandable filler for which I mixed in Wests "Microsphere" powder. (Boatcote and others claim this is a dangerous material due to risk of inhalation).

Not quite true. Bote Cote have a strong line against colloidal silica - the microspheres are relatively benign.

It all comes down to the shape of the particles.

If you do breath in microspheres you can cough them up like all the dust we breath in during the day.

But Silica (and others like asbestos) are long thin sharp splintery fibres - so once inhaled they tend to stick in place - so stay there as long term irritants. Silicosis, mesothelioma respectively.

All dust should be avoided. One of the best investments a woody can make is some sort of either portable dust extraction or a permanent installation in the workplace.

Power tools should have adaptors to allow the dust extraction equipment to be connected whereever possible - which is just about everywhere these days.

Makes a huge difference to the smooth running of a workshop.

MIK

Originally Posted by Daddles

With Bote Cote, you get one filler for everything. It is gritty to use and a prize bastard to make nice fillets with because it is stiff and sticky and ... just horridIt sets rock hard and what there is is what you're stuck with - you aren't going to sand that fillet smooth. I don't like the fillers and if the esteemed Bruce Mc (who makes the stuff) is reading, he might wish to consider this.

There are two different fillers made by Bote Cote - one for gluing/filleting - one for filling (its easier to sand and not as strong).

I just about always mask around the area I am filleting so I don't have to worry about staining the ply. I have found I don't need to sand fillets using the Bote Cote filler much at all. Just a surface roughen to allow subsequent coats to adhere.

fillets are generally a half and half mix of the two <snip> and you've got a lot more sandability, particularly as you add more of the micro balloons.

You do lose strength. Sanding difficulty is just about exactly in line with strength. So if you add more of the easy sanding baloons you may risk the integrity of the glue. I am not sure if WEST recommend this for filleting.

The botecote filleting/gluing mix is set up to provide the right mix of properties without mixing different powders - though on occasion it might make sense to do so.

If you are coating a surface with poxy, and use West, you will either have to wash it down with a scourer and ammonia first to move the blush, or clog up a lot of sandpaper. I've done both and will probably just go with the sander next time, not worry about the wash down, however, this is supposed to be a distinct advantage of Bote Cote though to be honest, I don't remember being very impressed with it when I had to sand it in the past. Memory does play tricks, but I honestly don't remember finding the Bote Cote any better ... perhaps because sanding a coated surface is such a horrid job anyway. I will see when it comes to testing.

From experience in a production situation my feeling is the choice of sandpaper grit makes a huge difference. Also Dust extraction on the tools stops paper from clogging. Basically if you build a mast or a centreboard for a Puddle Duck epoxy it then spend more than 15 minutes with a random orbit sander then you need to either do more work on your coating technique, sanding technique, dust extraction or grit selection. My feeling is that brand of epoxy is irrelevant here (I have sanded major projects that have used both epoxies)

However, you can add a bit of sawdust to the poxy to get the colour right, something I've done often with good effect though to be honest, it's not often I bother. For the PDs, I believe Midge was able to get a filler that colour matched well, but you'll need to ask him about that.

The Bote Cote fillers match quite well with medium brown timbers - Cedar, Gaboon, Maple and similar.

Which raises the question, what happens when you use the West fillers in Bote Cote:confused:

No problems - fillers are inert (at least to anything in WEST or BoteCote) - Mix and Match.

MIK

Originally Posted by Lignum

The Thicknessing powder adds to the strength. A few months back i didnt clean out the excess epoxy enough and the epoxy coated wooden tray i use was leant up againsed a wall and left for the weekend and on the monday morning wouldnt budge. So 4 or 5 heavey whacks with a mallet was needed and it ripped a big chunk of concrete out of the floor:eek:

West system + Micro filler = Seriously strong

There is some data around published by WEST about the relative radii of the lightweight filler fillets vs the higher density harder to sand ones.

So while the lightweight stuff might pull concrete out of the floor it is considerably weaker than the stuff designed for filleting. So if you use the low density powder for fillets they need to be considerably bigger.

Sticking well to a concrete floor is not necessarily a good criterion for strength in other structures! )

To be specific you have only shown how poorly concrete deals with tensile and shock loadings - not how strong or weak the 'pox is!

MIK

Thanks again for opinions, comments and enlightening facts.

Another summary (my version) ... not much different from the last one..

So far

West
Cures harder
Is naturally a thinner product (better for working into the cloth) but can be thickened obviously
Good variety of fillers

Bote Cote
Aussie
Cheaper (a little over 2/3 price ... from what I've found)
No amine blush
Thicker (better for working on vertical surfaces unthickened)
Good variety of hardeners

Both sound very good and it's a matter on mainly what you're familar with more so than the the purpose that you're using it for.

By all means pls add any thougths about good, bad, ugly experiences that you've had with the various products ... or even not product related as I prefer to learn from your mistakes after all I can make enough of my own without repeating your errors.

Dingo, thanks for your offer of the Wee Lassie II forms but from what I've read the wee lassie wouldn't handle the volume (read that as weight) that I need to put into it. My 150kg + SWMBO + two light wt girls = 200kg ... OK so I don't weigh that much. So I need something that can take 200kg for a bit. ... will the Wel Lassie take that sort of wt?

West when you use 107 UV stabilized hardener there is no amine blush
107 costs a bit more but we have been using it on a bar top cockpit floor etc and it seems pretty good same propertieis as normal West and when you see my son use it it looks simple.
Where my son works his boss is building a 1930s style river boat when doing the hull the guy doing it applied special plastic sheeting over the west system after it was applied run a rubber bladed spatula over it to smooth it out and get rid of bubbles etc, then the plastic is peeled off when it is dry smoother finish less sanding works a treat

Having just finished a strip built canoe I have a couple of observations.

I used techniglue to glue all the strips together and then for all additional woodwork. I had some left over to build some paddles as well. It is tolerant of a rough mixing ratios. it's supposed to be 2:1 but does not seem to require absolute accuracy. It sands well. It is not affected by water - I know that the strips will be encased in fibreglass but if there is ever an ingress of water I want the strips to stay together. It has a great working time. I could make up a batch and get three or four strips on with no issue. I had very little wasteage.

I used west system for the fibreglassing. 105 resin and 207 Special Coating Hardener. The 207 Special Coating Hardener is a must as it cures to a clear finish so you can see the wood within. Mixing was a trivial activity as I used the west system pumps that provided an exact 3:1 ratio. I think that I used about 6 liters of resin/hardener all up. I don't recall it being expensive considering the time and effort put into getting all the strips glued and sanded.

Matt
thanks for your info
Just a coupla questions
why don't you put a pic up on "woodworking pics" I'd be keen to see it... I can guarrantee the other guys would be as well.
However if you don't want to I'd be keen to know what design and as a matter of interest I'd be keen to know how many coats of epoxy you applied and what was the weight of the glass you used as I am trying to work out how much epoxy to buy for a first boat.
Did you get any amine blush with the 207.

Stephen thanks for the info on the west hardner and the lake of blush with 107 ... do I get the impression that the 107 doesn't leave a totally transparent finish though .. from what Matt said??
Thanks

Originally Posted by Ramps

I'd be keen to know how many coats of epoxy you applied and what was the weight of the glass you used as I am trying to work out how much epoxy to buy for a first boat.

When I worked selling materials we would generally sell about 12litres of resin for a 16ft strip canoe. There would generally be a bit left at the end.

Many people decided to buy 6 litres to get started, then buy another when they needed it. There is not a huge cost (/litre) differential between buying 6 and buying 12.

GENERAL
ALWAYS COAT TIMBER WET-ON-WET - saves heaps of labour and heaps of epoxy. consider coating items BEFORE they go in the boat.
See FAQ at http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/Faq/faqindex.html

Coating Timber
Whichever epoxy you use three coats is best over general woodwork.

A single coat is not enough - soaks in too much and leaves some areas dry,

Two coats and some areas may still be soaking in too much and it is possible to have "holidays".

Three coats and is unlikely to have holidays and has enough thickness for moderate sanding to prepare for the following paint or varnish. SOMETIMES wth bote cote you can JUST get away with two because it is that little bit thicker - but you have to have your sanding act well sorted.

Four coats is a waste of money - usually.
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Glassing
With coating glass you have to keep coating until over about 80% or more of the surface the weave is not visible.

This allows enough margin for sanding without cutting back into the glass fibre too much. You will have to probably follow up with a locally applied coat where you go through to the glass or a single thin coat (with roller dragging to slick off the surface) over the whole surface with a very light sand after. see FAQ

Glass weights for canoes.
10oz (330gsm) - too heavy for canoes.

6oz (200gsm) - just about universal. Wets out nicely - can stilll see the timber and protects the cedar from most possibilities of denting (eg being put down on a stone)

4oz - for a lighter weight - only worthwhile IMHO if there have been some pains taken with the timber trim, decks, seats and bulkheads to keep weight out as well.

less than 2oz (60gsm) - I used this for my balsa strip planked canoe. I doubled it up on the underside of the boat where it may have touched the ground and doubled it where the paddler and seat would contact the inside of the hull. Was easily capable of dealing with all structural loads from paddling and handling on shore. Did dent easily - remember that the core was balsa - there would be less problem with cedar or kiri - but I always put the boat on the ground upside down so it was never a problem.

5.5kg

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/Balsacanoe/Balsacanoe.html
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I suspect that "Clarity" is largely a marketing ploy.

At 6oz you can see the weave of the cloth from about a foot away from the surface. Further - you won't.

Despite the 1.75oz that I used being one third the thickness (and the resin being less than 1/3 the thickness too of course) there was little or no perceptible difference in clarity - I was interested to see the difference it would make at the time - very little. Equates to having resin that's three times clearer.
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Remember that I have had links to Bote Cote over 20 years in reading the following. I don't make any money from it now - I only sell plans and attempt to push people toward the proven quality epoxy systems equally - Bote Cote, WEST, System three and others in the same price band - you get what you pay for. This statement is based on comparitive testing done by University Engineering Departments over a decade ago. I am assuming that the price/"mechanical properties" equation remains definitive.

The Bote Cote at that time ('91) was using an almost colourless hardener that did not yellow over time. That hardener became the standard hardener for some time until the last major revision - some years ago ('93/95?) - where the amine blush problem was resolved as well.

It is my understanding that the standard BC hardener is similar to the 207 West in terms of not yellowing over time, being basically clear and not having amine blush. But it's the standerd hardener at a standard price - not on special order or at a special price.

(Perhaps the non yellowing is a moot point. You have to varnish the boat anyhow and that should protect the 'pox from UV which causes the yellowing. If the varnish is ever allowed to deteriorate it might be good insurance to have a non yellowing epoxy underneath - but if you don't let that happen ... Also large (and longterm) projects which might be partially exposed to sun it might be good to have a non yellowing epoxy.)

As I said earlier choice really comes down to WHAT YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH. Other epoxies will always seem unpredictable compared to what you have used most.

The easiest thing is to STICK with the premium brands - their mechanical properties are miles above the cheaper epoxies - so your boat will be stronger, more durable and less maintenance.

Best Regards to All
Michael

Ramps,

I just put a pic up in the in the woodworking pics area. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=33862

In retrospect I think that when I said I used 6 litres I really meant that I used about 13 liters. woops!

The plans came from Glen-l. They were pretty good. There were some things that had to be worked out but it was not rocket science.

I used 6oz cloth for the interior and exterior with one extra layer of 4 oz cloth on the outside up to the waterline.

All up it took two to three applications of epoxy to fillout the fibreglass. My tip would be that if you don't know what your doing (I didn't) is to make sure you have everything ready at hand and work fast. Don't try for perfection, just get it on and then start worrying. Don't fiddle unless you know what your doing. The 207 hardener did not seem to leave any amine blush. In fact I don't actually know what it is as I have yet too observe it.

A few stats. My canoe is 17 feet long and weights 25 Kgs. In retrospect I think that I built it heavy and I think that if I was to do another I could carve off at least 4 to 5 Kgs. Less epoxy, thinner strips, use of 4oz cloth vs 6 oz cloth etc