Thread: West or Bote Cote ... what's your poxy ... and why?

Originally Posted by Mattkk

My tip would be that if you don't know what your doing (I didn't) is to make sure you have everything ready at hand and work fast.

Good advice! You get more working time with the epoxy that way.

If the epoxy sits in a container after it has been mixed (thoroughly!) the heat accumulates and you get precious little time before the lot starts thickening then smoking.

If you get it out on the surface QUICKLY then the bigger surface area allows the heat to get away and you get more working time.

So mix, get it out on the surface, then you'll have time to tidy it up after.

This method makes a lot more difference to working time than using a slower or faster hardener. The only exception is if you have to work in direct sunlight on a warm day - then this strategy falls apart because the surface gets heated by the sun - so you just have to move to doing smaller areas with each mix.

MIK

I note a lot of material and good opinions here, but one reason (not the only one) that I myself far prefer Bote-Cote over WEST (or others) is because its mix-ratio is more forgiving.

I make no claims to being a meticulous woodworker as I know many here are, and I don't want to be bothered with measuring out components gram by gram. With Bote-Cote, two squirts from one pump and one squirt from the other and I'm done.

Originally Posted by Mike Field

I make no claims to being a meticulous woodworker as I know many here are, and I don't want to be bothered with measuring out components gram by gram. With Bote-Cote, two squirts from one pump and one squirt from the other and I'm done.

That is an interesting comment Mike, because I see the Bote Cote pumps and their ratio as a flaw in the system (and remember, I've fought with both).

Two pumps? To give two pumps right after each other, you have to make sure the pump is fully charged before giving the second. Not a problem in a warm workshop but in colder weather, you need to be aware of it.

Two pumps to one? It's easy to get lost if making a big mix. With West, it's one pump of each. Hard to get wrong. And going from one pump to another gives the first pump time to recharge (see above point).

The smallest amount of Bote Cote you can make using their pumps is three pumps. With West, it's effectively one pump because the harderner doesn't add much. I often do jobs that need less than three pumps and so found Bote Cote wasteful.

So sorry, I can't agree with your preferance of Bote Cote over West based solely on the pumps.

However, it's not a big deal - it's an argument that comes under the category of 'something to argue about while the billy boils'

Weighing the stuff is the EASIEST way of doing it. Seriously. Possibly helped by the fact that I already had a set of electronic scales (they are pricey darned things). I place my pot on the scales. Hit the button. Wait for zero. Pump in some resin. Read the weight. Hit the button again and do a quick mental calc while the scales zero themselves, then pump in the hardener. Gawd, that sounds harder than it is.

Using the scales, you quickly realise how dodgy the pumps are - they don't reliably give the right ratio ... which also makes you realise just how tolerant these epoxies really are (because using the pumps works). Both the Bote Cote and the West pumps are scary things if you're watching the numbers come up on a set of scales (the West ones I'm using at the moment regularly need an extra pump of harderner ... regardless of how much resin went in. Dunno why and it's not logical but there it is).

The scales also allow for a stroke of the pump not giving the right amount - eg, copping an air bubble or the pump just not being full before use. The scales allow you to make very small mixes if needed, and I've often found myself making less than a pump load for small patches or when bedding in screws.

Because I'm not building every day, the pumps are not being used every day. Sometimes it'll be weeks before I need to reach for the goop again, and this, I have found, can lead to problems with the pumps too. Sure, you can say that if won't be using the pumps for awhile, you can wash them out and store them - I actually saw that advice on an american site. Hah. I can never predict when I'll be out there again, nor how much poxy I'm going to use. The scales guard against errors here and like I said earlier, if a pump does act up, you know exactly where you are and how much to add to correct the problem.

The maths isn't all that hard either - dividing by 5 or 2 is easy, especially as it is easy to control the amount going into the pot down to the gram level if you like, thus you don't squirt in 18 grams, you squirt in 20

The scales are well worth buying as they make the whole job a lot more controllable without being hard on the brain. It's true. Would I say it if it wasn't

Richard

Mik'll be able to correct me on this or if things have changed.

Some years ago, I asked Bruce Mc (of Bote Cote) about the pumps and why he used the ones he did. His answer was that the pumps he used were accurate and he'd had too much trouble with pumps that gave smaller quantities - hence you need to give two pumps from the resin, then one from the hardener.

I might also add that I learned about using scales from a seasonned Bote Cote user (ex Duck Flatter too) he liked them for basically the reasons I stated above - ease, more flexibility in the measurements and you don't have to worry about pumps.

However, the pumps make it very easy to dispense the poxy into your pot, even on the scales - pouring it from the bottle is a recipe for waste, mess and bad language.

Richard

Mike, Richard
thanks for your further opinions
I've already got the drift that you (or I) can't rely on (any? ) pumps and some other sort of measure is the way to go. What does appeal to me about Bote Cote is similar to or maybe what Mike was inferring is that a 1:2 ratio is much more forgiving than a 1:5 ratio.
The only question that comes to mind is that these compounds are designed to mix as a volumetric measure; do both the hardner and resin have the same density:confused: ? if not, it could be part of the reason why you're getting an ongoing mismatch from the pumps Richard? Just a thought. Can anyone tell me the density/specific gravity of the different compounds ... if someone has a new largish container of the various products they could weigh them for us.
Ta guys

Howdy Ramps,

Richard is not wrong about the various scenariios but to not use pumps ...

That would be a wrong assumption. Pumps can work fine - I use them and have used them my whole boatbuilding career.

By far the bulk of builders use them and I mean around 90%.

But it is important for users to find a way to satisfy themselves - and Richard has done that.

The only time I don't use them is when I am dealing with larger quantities and it is easier/faster to just pour into a container using a marked stick to get ther ratios.

Pumps are fast - accurate enough and durable enough - but ...

it sure helps if you make up a light box to keep the resin and hardener in. If they are warm the pumps work REALLY well and are more accurate, morre faster and more durable.

There is a break even point depending on the type of work but it is easy enough to flick on the switch for the lightbox when the day is likely to involve gluing.

The pumps will still work OK with care (and patience in winter) if the box is not on and you need a mix in an emergency

Hope this helps

Michael

Ye, all good points. I don't know if the pumps are particularly accurate, but at 2:1 they don't really need to be. (At 5:1, they would.) Yes, the stuff certainly slows down when it's cold, and a light box for warmth sounds a good idea. And yes, you can get air bubbles if you're too impatient -- but you only have to slow down a little and let the pump fill properly to avoid that.

The point about wastage is good. If you were using epoxy a lot, then you'd probably waste quite a bit by using pumps. (Although again, a 2:1 mix is so forgiving you can almost do it by eye -- so one stroke and a half-stroke might work okay for half-quantities, for instance.) I have to say though that I use epoxy very little, so a bit of wastage when I do use it doesn't bother me.

Also I'd rather buy a local product. And also I prefer the smell over that of other epoxies I've used.

If you have a look this thread you can see some more information about Bote-Cote products.

Mike

I found using the poxy at TAFE very interesting compared to working spasmodically at home. We were only in there once a week, but the apprentices were in the shop using the same pumps during the week. With two boats on the go and twenty blokes working on them, the poxy station got a real hiding (wait in line sometimes). They'd buy the poxy in huge pots and keep refilling the 4l kit bottles. We only used pumps and used the same pumps all the time, but ... they were in constant use. I reckon that makes a difference. Also though, with that much work going on, if you had some left over, you just gave it someone else with something to glue, and there always seemed to be some filletting to be done somewhere.

Working alone on your own boat and learning as you go is a VERY inefficient way of doing things. Waste is sometimes as common as stuff ups.

Another annoying thing with the West pumps is that the pick up tube doesn't go to the bottom - at least with Bote Cote (well, the last time I bought BC pumps), you get to cut the pipe yourself and can cut it to the right length. The heat box would certainly help.

The weight issue isn't an issue - it works just as well.

With my current, funny hardener pump, it occured to me yesterday that I'm using a resin pump from a 4l kit and a hardener pump from a smaller kit. I thought they'd use the same pump in both kits but with shorter pick up tubes, but it could be the two kits use different pumps and that is why I've got this slight problem. Dunno. I could also be a I've got a dud pump. Why am I using pumps from two different kits? Because the pump from the hardener on the previous kit was as dodgy as a paper funnel. I've had a bad run with pumps in recent years, all West pumps so there might be a message there. It's not something I get upset about because as I've said, I like using my scales - it would upset someone who doesn't.

In the end, it boils down to what you are doing and how you are doing it. That can dramatically alter the balances that determine what's best for us. This is why I like seeing how other people do things and their solutions to their problems.

One further point, despite all I've said in previous posts, if Binks, my local chandler, stocked Bote Cote and not West, I'd be using Bote Cote and, as Mik and Mike have pointed out or hinted at, I'd be happy with that product too. If they had both, I'd probably be using BC (because it's Aussie). Although I could probably order the stuff in, I really don't need the extra messing around. I need it? I buy it. (hey, when you're fighting in the family court to keep contact with your daughter, you don't need shopping hassles in your 'relaxation therapy'. This attitude might change if life ever settles down). This really is a 'beers around the barbie' discussion.

Richard

Like I said at the beginning of this thread - the first page - second post - little would be revealed but the biases of the participants.

We all have few problems with what we use because we have adapted to its use and adapted it to our methods.

So WEST/BoteCote - who cares?

You can stay completely within one brand's products and build great boats.
I use Bote Cote
Richard uses WEST

When we meet up and talk boats and building the brand just doesn't come up at all - (it hasn't, has it Richard?) this is a measure of how unimportant it is.

My theory about boatbuilding is that when someone is actually uncertain about making the first step they pace backwards and forwards and talk endlessly about the pros and cons of different materials and compare suppliers and compare building methods.

When they are sick of the angst - they just go ahead and do it.

There is not even anything particularly wrong with going through the Angst - it can be part of the process. But when it gets too long winded or too emphatic then there's a problem that needs to be faced more directly (funnily enough by realising there is an underlying problem)

So the BoteCote/WEST dichotomy is really meaningless. (see I even wrote it round the opposite way this time!).

BESTCote?

However the different strategies for handling the material that everyone has been putting in have been great - and it will be great to continue for that benefit.

Michael

Originally Posted by Boatmik

So the BoteCote/WEST dichotomy is really meaningless.

I dare you to say that to Bruce Mc next time you're having a beer with him. Better still, we could post this thread in AABB and he could have a spit there (I'm remembering the 'to poxy coat or not' business the issue before last).

Seriously, Bruce McConkey, though I don't know the man, says things as he believes them ... on paper anyway. Anyone thought of inviting him to join the fun here? And Rob Ayliffe and a few of the others (yes Mike F, I know you're here).

Richard
someone please tell me if I'm tossing lit matches into the gunpowder stores again

Crumbs Daddles, Bruce is retired now so he'd probably have time to finish one thread before we all expire.

If he turns up, I will instantly concede defeat in the quest for the longest post!

We've had a few designers turn up and go, David P and Mike Waller have logged on once or twice. Bruce is still in the Bris wooden boat scene, so I'll suggest it to him when next our paths cross, or onthebeachalone can do it for us!

The problem with for all those blokes is that if they turn up, we'll just jump on them from a great height tell them they are wrong, then they'll go away again.

Just like we did with Boatmik.

Cheers,

P

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

The problem with for all those blokes is that if they turn up, we'll just jump on them from a great height tell them they are wrong, then they'll go away again.

From what I know of Bruce, that might just be an attraction.

I might sound as though I know what I'm talking about sometimes (my daughter believes me), but I'm still staring up a near vertical learning curve. Even Mik might have noticed by now that I do change my views when better evidence comes along. The more experience on here, the better.

BTW, I know we already have a lot of experience on this forum, so please don't anyone feel like I'm putting them down. I'm not.

Richard

Originally Posted by Daddles

From what I know of Bruce, that might just be an attraction.

Well there IS that!

In an ideal world they'd all be here, but I don't blame them for not knowing aobut us. So many forums, such a small marketplace!

cheers,

P

To the contrary BoatMik

This was never meant to a "which is best" thread... check the title.

It was just that I'd heard a lot of good about both and they both had their characteristics.

From what you have all posted I have made up my mike as a beginner which to run with and feel it is a very fruitful thread ... thanks guys for your input.

.... "So WEST/BoteCote - who cares?" .... I do, that's why I asked

Thanks again