Thread: The very beginning of a build (AKA What Boat!)

Originally Posted by mattj82

...
onto my question... What boat should I build?

I've been trying to think about my requirements and this is the list I've come up with:

* Modern Building Techniques. I quite like the Hartley designs, however my reading has led me to believe they are outdated and there are better options.
* Relatively Easy to build. I'm a pilot, not a boat builder. I have some carpentry experience, but I need something that has good, easy to follow plans, preferably with full size patterns as I really am not that interested to learning how to loft the plans. An extensive building community and the ability to contact the designer would also be helpful.
* I'm a big guy (6'3", 100kg +) so I'm beginning to think that cabins are are a bad idea as I am going to find them "cosy"
* I envision using it in Port Phillip on day trips and the Gipsland Lakes for overnight camping trips. I have a wife (who I really don't think is going to be very interested in overnight trips) and two young sons who I am sure will love it. So it needs room for the boys and camping gear.
* Easy to sail, I did some sailing years ago as a kid, but its been a while!

I am sure there are things that I haven't thought of... that's why I'm posting here!

Hi Matt

1. building a boat from a pre-cut kit will be much much easier than sourcing and cutting materials to a pattern -- especially if you have no tools to start with.
2. by the time you finish the build, your boys will be up to 4 or 5 times the size they are now
3. if it's for day sailing (without the missus) maybe a dingy would be a better option.
4. which ever option you ultimately decide on, you'll need a shed, garage or carport big enough to build it in

http://nisboats.com/straydog/mainpages/shop.html
have a look around Ian Oughtred's designs-plenty of nice boats here,beautiful plans.Ness Yawl or Fulmar for example.Robert is great to deal with.
http://www.payneyachts.com/sailing-y...ns-design.html
The Snapperboat might be worth considering-David's plans are also great and he is only a call away.
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Dayboat.htm
Lots of choices,and a dedicated forum for support.
http://baysidewoodenboats.com.au/designs/
Very appealing.
Once you strike on a choice,I would advise you to work on the bits and pieces-rudder, centreboard,masts and spars,oars,blocks if you feel like making your own,deck fittings,sails if you're so inclined,I doubt I would be for a boat of the size you are contemplating, etc-it would be feasible to freight the materials for these to a remote location and you would then just have to make your boat before launching.

Might be worth a look at B and B yachts as well. From what you posted so far it looks like one of the designs from the beach cruiser section could fit the bill.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/

Goanywhere (an SA member) built one of the B and B Spindrifts last year and I think he was happy with the quality of the plans but you could always check with him for comments.

The job of selecting a design can be nearly as daunting as building the thing. Picking the right one will mean it gets built and more importantly, used too.

There are countless designs, but I have a few that might fit as well:

Each has multiply rigs to choose from, one is a cruiser and the other a dayboat, both well suited for heavy weather if it comes along. Rocky is 18' (5.5 m) on deck and will sail best as a Bermudian sloop, though the ketch is more cruiser handy, with the gaff versions being more quaint.

Murphy will do best as a Bermudian sloop, but can have her mast moved forward to sail as a Bermudian cat (jib is stowed). She also has two gaff cat rigs, one of a common one design the other with a taller luff and shorter gaff for better general abilities.

Originally Posted by PAR

The job of selecting a design can be nearly as daunting as building the thing.

You're not kidding! Every time I narrow it dawn a little I find more options!

Thanks for the responses so far, just to clarify I definitely won't be even starting building until I get back to Melbourne. I hate to think how much it would cost to ship materials up here!

I think I've decided on something with a cabin, if only for a place for the kids to get out of the weather. I really like the look of the Rocky with a Ketch rig, but just a little concerned as to the difficulty of handling that many sails by an inexperienced sailor.

More research underway!

Matt

Rocky's rig is self tending, which simply means you put the helm down and the boat turns, without a need to tend anything. All the sails have booms so they're under control and easily handled. She will sail well with just her mainsail up and the jib and mizzen stowed away or furled. Of course she'll lack power, especially in light winds, but you can always host another sail. For the novice with a Rocky, you could build her as the Bermudian sloop and convert to a ketch, after building confidence, by cutting down the sloop main and jib to suit and sticking a mizzen on. The nice thing about a ketch is, the various combinations of sails you can fly, while still maintaining good helm balance. There's no wind strength you can experience short of a full gale, where you'll run out of options. Cats and sloops don't have this luxury.

For example on my ketch (not a Rocky, but similar sail proportions) I often sail out of the cove I launch from, under the mizzen and jib only. The main stays furled, until I get into open water. She's perfectly balanced under "jib and jigger" and this is also a great way to handle a sudden thunderstorm, you drop the main, continue along under jib and jigger until the heavy winds pass then re-hoist the main. I've also tried the staysail and jib alone, which works, but the helm is pretty light and goes lee in light wind strengths (understandably). She does fine with main and staysail, though upwind progress is tough and a jibe requires the staysail tack to move to the windward rail.

The ketch is often referred to as the gentleman's rig, for the reasons I've stated, but more importantly for how forgiving it is to errors, mistakes and sloppy or novice sailing skills. A ketch makes you look like a good sailor, while a screw up in a cat rig is instantly obvious to everyone around. Maybe you can tell I like the ketch rig, but I'm not the only one and it looks a heck of a lot better then single stick rigs too, especially if you have the staysail flying. On my ketch, I have an option to fly a kite (spinnaker), so I can have a kite, jib, main, staysail and mizzen flying all at once. It's a bit of work and I only do this with an extra hand aboard, but it's a sight to see and everyone thinks you're a pro, even if you're not. Rocky could fly a kite too, though one isn't drawn up for her, she should be able to handle one of several "one design" kites, such as the Flying Scot or maybe a slightly bigger one.

Rocky is an ambisious first build, if you haven't any boat building experience under your belt. It's not difficult, just a bit more complex and bigger than I recommend for a first build. Your first build should be a very simple boat, so your chances of success are good. If it's in the building method of your bigger "dream yacht" the better, as you'll learn valuable skills for that build. Most novices want a boat that's much bigger than they need or one that offers stuff, they'll never use. Back to the ketch I have now. It was a sloop I built back in the 70's and sailed around for about a decade. It had a pop top cabin, typical aluminum mast, sloop rig, transom hung rudder, etc., much like the Catalina 22. I gave it to a buddy of mine who sailed it for another decade, but then it sat for years, unused, so I dragged it back home and cut off the deck. I never used the cabin, even though it had a nice V berth, porta-pottie, settees and table. I just used the cockpit, so I stripped out the whole interior and rigging, replacing it with a small foredeck, with storage under, small bow sprit, new main mast, a mizzen and two long seats down each side from the foredeck to the mizzen. It's a giant daysailor and I can easily seat 10 if I wanted, though never have tried. My point is, now the boat gets used, because it's simpler and it's just what I need, without a bunch of stuff that I don't.

For your first build, maybe something a bit smaller is more appropate, which is why I included Murphy, which is also a much simpler boat too. For someone your size, 14' - 17' would be the range (this is a huge range BTW), with 17' getting on the big side and 14' being a 2 man boat. Murphy will handle two adults and a couple of kids too, while Rocky can handle 4 adults with a couple of smaller kids making a mess in the cabin.

B&B yachts has a few designs you might like, such as the 15' Bay River Skiff , the Core Sound 15 or 17, all of which are cat ketch rigs, which is one of the easiest rigs to sail too.

Thanks PAR, your input is very much appreciated. You are clearly a designer that is very interested in his product, and helping builders, much to your credit.

I read the first couple of paragraphs and was quite liking the idea of the Rocky, but thinking it might be biting off more that I can chew for a first build. Out of interest, what do you mean by a more complicated build; is more skill required or just more time? Also, do your plans come with full size patterns or is it necessary to loft them (and idea that I find quite intimidating, rightly or wrongly)?

So I'm now thinking Murphy might be the way to go to start with... This boat building thing seems to be a bit addictive, there seem to be a lot of builders who are on their second, third or even fourth build! I suppose you need something to do when the weather is rubbish.

Matt

Matt, if you're keen on the Hartley designs I'd suggest stick with them or at least have another look before writing them off. They're not outdated and are one of the most successful designs and loved trailer sailer yachts in Oz and if you ever want to sell your boat I'd say that you'll find a lot more interest in a Hartley as a tried, proven and loved design than you may in any unproven and lesser known design (I'm not for an instant suggesting that any of those already suggested here may fall into that category!).

On the outdated side of things - I must say that I've never before heard someone suggest that any particular wooden boat design could be outdated and I can't really imagine how a successful wooden boat design such as the Hartley could ever be considered outdated.

There are lots of designs that are outdated. Some seem to transcend time, often from the hand of one of the masters, but most of the time they become outdated for a few reasons. The most common reasons are two fold, materials/building technique and/or hull form choices.

There are lots of well loved designs that are simply difficult to build by the plans, because the materials aren't available or as available as they where when it was drawn up. Coupled with this are older build methods, which often require a lot of little boat bits to be made, which compaired to a more modern build, increase complexity, cost and build effort. Simply put, if a boat has frames, you have buy the stock, cut it and assemble them, where as a modern tape seam build (as an example), might not have a single frame in it, saving the bother, expense and time associated with them.

As far as hull forms are concerned, a lot has been learned in the last half century, so you can go fast or maneuver better then a lot of older designs. A good example of this might be a warped bottom, full plane powerboat or possible a performance dinghy. A classic powerboat design from the 60's might not incorporate the '63 series "David Taylor Model Basin" tests, which dramatically altered the way we look at high speed power craft shapes. The same can be said of performance dinghies, which have abandoned the bluff bow planing hulls with different shapes that simply perform much better.

I think the biggest factor is build methods. Huge advances in this regard have taken place since the 70's and anyone would be wise to take advantage of them. I'm currently building a lapstrake sailor. I'm very glad it's a modern glued lap, because I don't have to bend a bunch of frames, nor floors and I don't need to install thousands of clenches or rivets either. This boat doesn't even have a proper keel. This is a big advantage. The newer method saves lots of time and lots of materials, which makes my wallet happy, not to mention my "bucking iron" arm, after a day of pounding clenches over.

Back to outdated stuff. It happens all the time with boat designs. A good example would be the decades of CCA yachts that plyed the waters and race courses around the world. I've had several of these old war horses and they where great sailors, but come the early 70's the IOR's came to be, making every single CCA era yacht a dog in a race against them. Of course, you could accept your new rating and try to win on corrected time, but the IOR fleet would cross the finish line well ahead of you. Another example would be a fast powerboat. An old warpped bottom typically becomes longitudnally unstable (porpoising) around 60 MPH, but a monohedren design will blast along way past this limit, on the same horse power, plus handle chop and pounding loads much better.

This is all part of the design selection process, if not just to add fuel to your fire. Another example might be on of Mik's designs, where nary a metal fastener is used in the hull. Actually, this isn't all that unusual with modern designs, but some still have trouble with the concept. Not only do you save money, because you don't have to buy a few hundred stainless or bronze screws, but you don't have to drill pilot or clearance holes or drive them in either.

I'm not trying to confuse you, but just offering some food for thought. Aesthetics can be changed, usually without the need of an engineer or NA. In the end, you can do a fine job of building a boat that doesn't do what you'd hope it might or after an exhaustive search (including your sole) you do build a boat that exceeds your expectations and puts a in-erasable smile on your face, every time you're out in her. It's just as easy to build either type of boat and the time you spend now looking, will pay off big time come launch day.

Might be worth looking at some of Tom Dunderdale (Campion Sail and Design)'s boats.

http://www.campionboats.co.uk/

Good luck and fly safely.