Thread: Cherry 16 or a Hartley TS16??

I, like many others have had a Hartley TS16 and still miss it. Having said that, I would not have another one. Personally, I think the best boat for that job is a Jarcat J5,

The Redfin 520, which is a development of the Cherry 16 and the Waller 540/5.4 are also good alternatives.

To answer your question, I'd opt for the Cherry 16 on the basis of weight- on and off the trailer,moving around a beach and out on the water. Without the Hartley's beam it won;t handle strong conditions as well, so it depends on the conditions you normally sail in.

As for the 'coffin berths'- kids only I think.

We sail mostly the southern end of Port Phillip Bay. Pretty choppy, and a big swell when the wind's from the north, but the Hartley handles it really well. Stability is a key for me, or I can't get the family out in it. So the Hartley's been a success there.
The Hartley crowd are a really nice bunch too. Lots of activities with families in mind. I'm not sure other classes are so well supported.
Why wouldn't you have another if you miss the one you had?

My circumstances are different, I tend to sail in more sheltered waters and my family have 0% interest, so I like aboat I can single-hand. I found the Hartley heavy and took a while to rig/de-rig. I'd probably be a little nervous aboard a Cherry in the conditions you describe.

For practicality, I still come back to the Jarcat 5, but understand not everybody is a multihull kind of person.

I do agree that 'Hartley' people are a good bunch- they are up here, anyway.

I'm into monohulls. I had a look at the Waller 540 tonight - a really nice design.
I just read a horror story about a Cherry capsize. It turned turtle, but even without that it doesn't sound retreivable. They had to tow it upside down back to shore. I don't like the thought of that happening so close to The Rip on an outgoing tide (althought Hartley's have been known to capsize too)
Colin Brookes at Hartley boats has come up with a Mark II design for the TS16 that looks more modern than the original, but it doesn't seem to have really taken off. I'm not sure why.

Simon, if you have a Hartley, which you 'love', why another boat the same? Just keep the old girl fettled and restored and build yourself something completely different. Cripes, you could even do away with them stupid flappy sail thingies and build a rowboat



Richard

The kids were given a wooden rowboat with a hole in the hull which we fixed. Also, when I bought a dolly for my Laser, one of the conditions was that I took the old Laser that was on it. Just the hull, no fittings, so I converted that to a rowboat as well. We planned to use them just to get off shore enough to go fishing.

I couldn't believe the frustration of having a great wind and not being able to use it. All my sailing life the wind, even a head wind, has been my friend. In a row-boat it's almost always your enemy - if it's not pushing you backwards, it's trying to turn you around.

Ever tried to row a Laser with no skeg keel in any sort of cross-wind? It certainly gives you a panoramic view of the world!

Regarding other boats, I'd love this:

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/Tig/UI/P...&autoplay=true

but I'm hopeless with maintainance, and much as I love wooden boats, leaving them on the water permanently just kills them, I reckon. I'd hate to see something so beautiful die on my watch.

So, for me, if I'm sticking with wood it's got to be sailable, trailerable and tucked in bed at night, where I don't have to worry about it.

Have sailed both.
Only thing Cherry16 & TS16 have in common is length and a cabin.
Cherry is about 50% of the volume of the TS, & modern monocoque construction - more of a light-weight skiff that you sit on. Very clever use of space.
TS is a heavyweight dinghy that you sit in, unless pushing hard.
Totally different boat in every way.

Personally, I found the TS easier to single-hand - stable, relaxed & easy to move around in & on.
Rigs are essentially the same so I can't see there'd be any real difference in rigging time.
cheers
AJ

How do the Cherry and the TS16 compare speed-wise?

I've actually been quite impressed so far with the TS. It seems faster than the average trailer-sailer (even bigger ones), and we gave the Sorrento-to-Queenscliff ferry a run for it's money earlier this month. Didn't beat us by too much.

The low ballast weight worries me with the Cherry. I haven't got too many chances left if I want to keep my wife sailing with me, and tipping her in, in an unrightable boat, would finish me.

Also, your comments about smaller interior space on the Cherry are a concern. We use the TS a lot for sleepovers, both on water and on the trailer, so space is important.

P.S. "Last edited by b.o.a.t.; 25th Apr 2010 at 03:04 AM. Reason: fix edit of edit of edit.. <roll eyes>"

AJ, what are you doing editing your entries at 3am? Shouldn't that be <close eyes>?!!
Rest easy buddy, we knew what you meant, and I really appreciate your experience and comments!

G'day Simon
can't comment on the Cherry's speed.
It was a half-day test sail almost 30 years ago.
I liked the boat -almost- enough to sign up for one, but spent my money on
getting edjamakated instead. Still not sure if that was a good decision...

I do recall that at 6'2", it was a bit of a squeeze in the cabin, although the
quarter berths were surprisingly roomy. My perception may have been tainted
because the previous boat I'd been looking at (but hopelessly out of my $$$)
was a Hood 23 or 21. Also, I was fresh out of small dinghies - Cherry appealed
to that side of my experience with the bonus of a dry place to sleep if I did
start overnighting.

Sounds like your wife is the same as mine - non-sailor for whom an aircraft
carrier has about the right degree of stability & amenities. Even my TS16 in
a strong blow put my wife off sailing.
Ray Aldridge's "Slider"? Why I built Slider | Slider or a
Jarcat 5/6 are probably the best boat to get her onto the water with anything
approaching enthusiasm. And even that tempered with impatience at the
rigging time. However, like you, I prefer monos to multis. For me, it may
boil down to whether I want to sail with my wife or not.

Oh, and at 3am I was doing the same as now- winding down after an afternoon shift.

cheers
AJ

On balance, considering that I've already got one, they're fast enough, stable, well supported and roomy I'll stick with the TS
.
I also have too many boats already, and can't stand parting with anything - including my wife, so, for anyone else who's interested, here's what I was thinking about:

TRAILER SAILER YACHT - eBay Sail, Boats, Boats, Watercraft, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 27-Apr-10 12:33:54 AEST)

$300, no reserve, "no rot", and a nice looking trailer. And only one day to run on the auction.

I own a Cherry 16 and sail on Port Phillip Bay no problems and happily take my kids 9, 6 & 3 year olds out in 5-15 knots. More than that and I go out with my mates.

I launch from Black Rock & North Rd Brighton both shallow/choppy ramps but with a boat only weighing 250kg it is not a problem to manage. I also sail out on Lysterfield just legal (16 ft max) and Warneet.

In under 20knts and some chop it would be really hard if not impossible to capsize. In heavier conditions reefing main down and furling jib makes boat safe quickly and easily.

Nothing like a dinghy with the 50kg galvanised swing keel. Ballast could be added for single hand sailing in the form of jerry cans/ sandbag/lead under cockpit floor. I have never bothered with it.

The story of a cherry 16 gone turtle was in really heavy conditions with the main unreefed and cleated, cabin open, keel not locked down, etc

Sail area is smaller than a TS16 so more manageable in that respect. To compensate Cherry 16 can be powered up with a spinnaker unlike the TS16.

I chose to get an old Cherry because they were designed after the epoxy 'revolution' in wooden boat building and plans call for epoxy construction. Some of the older Hartleys are a bit too dodgy for my liking. Both boats require a bit of handyman DIY love to keep in good nick but nothing complicated.

I got mine on ebay for $1500 then painted the topsides and that's about it.
Many people pay 10 times that for a trailer sailer with poorer performance and much less convenience in setup/launching.

Both boats are great cheap fun and good for day sailing & light cruising.

I've thrown some bits and pieces of Cherry 16 stuff on my blog (see below). Not much action though as in good wind I am always having too much fun to be taking photos. Have a look. Cheers.

Cherry 16

The Hartley and Cherry 16s each have merit. The Hartley is built by the original plywood method of screwing/gluing the sheets to stringers and frames. This is why the hull weighs 360kg. The Cherry came later and is built by stitching and gluing, and therefore is lighter at 220kg.

The Hartley is a more efficient hull shape with its double chines, in comparison the Cherry is single chine and rather too flat and wide afterwards. The Hartley has slightly more cabin space but the Cherry has two small quarter berths suitable for children.

As far as rig is concerned, The Hartley has a taller mast and more main and jib area. However the Cherry has a spinnaker. There was one on the original Hartley plan but this is rarely used as the Hartley 16 association banned its use in racing. The Pelin plans for the Cherry were for a family cruising boat to be safe in NZ strong winds. In Australia the sails used for racing including a fully battened mainsail and taller spinnaker are larger as shown in the specifications on the Yachting Victoria website. The Cherry Class rules passedin 2001 are still relevant.

The Hartley 16 is the most popular trailable yacht in the world and has a very strong following including a very active class association. Their newsletter is great. You can now get them in fibreglass. There are some 15,000 with 2,000 in Australia with a good secondhand market. The reason the Hartley Mk2 never succeeded was it was not allowed to compete in Hartley 16 races. The Cherry came later and never took off due to the large number of fibreglass designs then available. Just under 500 were built worldwide, with some 100 in Australia. There was a class association in Victoria which died in ten years ago.

Which is faster? In theory the Hartley is fastest as shown by its CBH rating of .635 compared with the .590 of the Cherry. However much of this 7.5% difference in rating is accounted for the fact by the Hartley 16 is very actively raced with more competent skippers. The Hartley is quicker to windward but the Cherry comes into its own off the wind with its lighter weight and spinnaker. Most Cherrys are just not set up for racing.

Which is safer? Having sailed both I would suggest there is minimum difference. They are easily handled up to 30 knots if sailed conservatively. All trailable yachts will capsize in extreme conditions but they should self right. The horror story of the 180 degree capsize was poor seamanship in not having the centreboard locked down. This was a fundamental error and is essential on all designs. Both a Hartley and Cherry will come upright after the rare event of a 90 degree capsize. The Cherry should contain less water due to the shape of its cabin opening. I deliberately capsized one as a test and it came up completely dry.

If I was racing I would choose a Hartley due to its class association. If just cruising then I would go Cherry because they can sleep two children and are cheaper to buy secondhand. One advantage of the Cherry is there are no limits on the material that can be used for its sails so Kevlar or Mylar film can be used. Being lighter the Cherry is easier to tow/launch but with a towing weight of under 700kg a Hartley can easily be towed by a 2 litre car. I have restored two Cherrys and set up one for serious racing, however I often race a Hartley because that is the common boat in the local club. For the next size up I would go Hartley 18 rather than Careel 18 but you are talking 1000kg tow weight.