Hello All,
I have of recent times been admiring Herreshoffs "Coquina" and come across several sites describing traditional built replicas along with glued lapstrake examples.
An interesting design feature is rope steering from any position.

This designer has plans for both construction methods and I am wondering if there are any comments about them.

I've got lots of projects to finish but I can't help coming back to this little day sailer for "the build". It has both traditional looks and features that would make it enjoyable in shallow confined waters.

Cheers
Mike

Those dudes are the right dudes!!!

So the plans will be good. It is a big build, though you could simplify by moving to glued lap if that was appealing.

I know others here have actually tried it and have a different opinion ... but I worry a lot about rope steering. I imagine a lot of friction and a sluggish response particularly as the boat gets bigger.

And also the risk of someone in the passengers leaning on the tiller line in some situation.

But if you know the potential problems ... maybe that makes it easier to reduce them!

MIK

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Wonder if PAR has any experience with rope tillers of this type?

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Hi Mik,
I was wondering the same thing re steering. Being dragged up on tiller steering, never really like wheel even the lack of feedback and slack in the system might drive a lot of boaties nuts. I guess a Beth style conversion would work too.

But thinking about the style of boat, the relatively deep skeg and a well balanced rig I would assume it would pretty much sail itself and stay on course. So course corrections are minor (bit like self steering) then for manouvoring being able to steer from all positions good for single handing and finding a comfy pozie out of the sun. Maybe a good feature for your raid project to reduce fatigue from a day in the saddle.

There is a builder down in Tassie thats done a replica in the trad method his web site shows a bit of construction, might send him a note with some questions.

Cheers

Cheers
Mike

Have tried rope tillers on a canadian & on Teal.
As far as feel & sensitivity go, I believe they can be made to work ok.
Some sort of spring tensioner required to maintain constant tension & feel.
But your side-to-side yoke needs to be about as long as a tiller would be
or you lose mechanical advantage. (Didn't we cover this before with David Atkins'
"Whilly Boat"?)
Also, having grown up hanging onto a tiller whilst leaning, sharing the hanging-on
loads across 4 limbs, I really missed having that tiller. I felt insecure only hanging
on with feet & mainsheet.
However, each to their own.
cheers
AJ

That is my basic concern too Mike,

The lack of sensitivity. You can have a shorter yoke on the top if you have a multi part purchase between the transom and the rudder back *actually you could bring the multi part purchase into the back of the boat and only have a single part going out to the rudder.

General rule is make the blocks oversize and run the thinnest rope you can through them to keep friction down to acceptable levels.

Use a cascade system rather than a back and forward system would save half the blocks or more as well as reduce frictional losses further.

But I would still doubt that it would feel OK. As Mike points out ... wheel steering can be pretty crap compared to a tiller and the multipart rope steering with all the blocks around the boat looks way more draggy that the average wheel steering ... even if no-one gets her lacy frock caught in the line (you have to see the original photo of Coquina to know ... there are about 5 aboard including women in lacy frocks)

Actually ... speaking of lacy cloth ... (one of you is bound to say, "Don't you always, MIK") one of the people that used to race 12ft skiffs in Sydney around the first world war was a woman ... maybe Irene ...

I've seen pics of her in some voluminious frothy lace number burning off the blokes ... something she used do quite regularly. But she did use a tiller because she was a REAL Kickass sailor.

But with all those pulleys in Coquina, even without interference from a frock ... I doubt that it will be very nice to use.

MIK

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Well Mik,
I've sent off for a back issue of Wooden Boat #187 it has an article about construction and sailing qualities so we'll see what it says about steering.

I've been trawling the net and another distingished forum for info there are some really interesting and well put together sites. It seems there are quite a few builds around the place, both glued and trad.

AJ know what you mean about hanging on to things but I don't think Coquina is that sort of white knuckled speed machine

BTW PAR must have gone sailing, still it's been quiet lately.

Cheers
Mike

Neither is my Teal, Mike !!
Can't tell you what a relief it was to get a tiller to hang onto though !
Probably a lot of that is because Teal is so small & tender that a careless sneeze
can rock the boat. Coquina looks larger & less... twitchy.

I spent a half a summer with a Coquina, including it's line steering.

It doesn't lack sensitivity, but does take some getting use to. Within an hour, you'll be pretty comfortable with it and after a day it's about natural for you.

It has some lovely advantages, including: the aft portion of the cockpit isn't "swept" by a tiller or housing a wheel, you can move your weight forward to balance the yacht with the steering at hand, performing sail handling or trimming chores can be handled with the helm under the other hand's control.

The steering was unique to me, but this isn't what I remember most about the boat. It's manners under sail, in different conditions was what stuck with me all this time. About as well balanced and easily tended an antique craft as a person could want. She left no perceptual wake, unless pressed hard to weather, easily balanced with sail trim and board coordination, hoist and reefing options, an easy motion that builds confidence the more you sail her and generally a very fine little dayboat. Her lines and construction drawings are worthy of hanging on a wall. Masterful shapes, plank runs and bits of clever engineering everywhere.

She's still an antique vessel type. Designed to be lightly built to that era's standards, she's a different boat then the modern sailor may like. Her sections are "slack" by modern standards, producing a "tender" hull (again by modern standards) boat. This tenderness goes only so far (amount of heel) before she firms up substantially. This is one of the reasons she sails and rows well.

If I was building one, I'd leave in the line steering, maybe with a tiller backup. I'd also consider a slight bigger and different shape (in keeping with it's era of course) for the rudder.

Hi PAR,
Just ducked in from the shed and had to check for a post on Coquina.

I was kinda hoping you would have experience with her and be able to give some clues to her qualities. Gee even more your experience matches exactly what I had in mind or figured to expect.

I'm really geed up now on a glued version and will start collecting some boards, don't like my chances on finding some nice mahogany for transom and trim so some thought into an alternative that would do justice is needed.

Will send off for the Hylan plans and CD next week so I can start some serious dreaming.

I like your idea of a backup tiller and redesigned rudder I also think some bouancy tanks in both the aft section under the steering lines and perhaps aft of the forward mast might be called for as insurance against stuff ups. Where I sail its a monty for 20-25kts in the afternoon and gusty. Not perhaps totally in keeping with tradition but I'm looking to use it while admiring the historic qualities.
Another little mod would be a removable canvas foredeck incorporating a dodger for going out in the lakes it tends to get a little nasty at times.

Ah more thinking more learning need a book on lapstrake techniques now too

Thanks again for your post PAR really appreciate it.

Well back to the varnishing

Mike

Mike,

Your comments about buoyancy tanks and a tiller prompted me to post a reply. I hesitated as I though it may seem like self-promotion, but I give the details in the spirit of discussion, and not commercial gain (my plans are not for sale at this stage anyway). You may, however, be able to pick up some ideas about layout and construction.

I was approached by an experienced customer who wanted a boat similar to my Phoenix III (a boat he had sailed on many occasions) but with an overall length of about 17 feet and with a Cat-Ketch (Periauger) rig. He was interested in performance, and I pointed out to him that the Cat-Ketch rig would not be the hottest thing around when going to windward. He was still keen, so after a number of sail plan draftings (including a Cat-Schooner) we settled on a Balanced-Lug Cat-Ketch (which has some exceptionally nice sail plan variations due to the use of a third mast stepping location which allows the use of either the main or the mizzen as a single sail).

The point of all this is that after I had done the initial arrangement drawings, it became apparent that the boat was very similar to Coquina in size and layout. This was not a case of copying on my part, as I didn't even look at my Coquina information until the design was frozen - it just shows that the application designs the boat for you.

The resulting boat is 17' x 5' (Coquina being 16' 8" x 5' from memory) and she has a deck layout like Coquina. This design incorporates a large buoyancy compartment under the aft deck, a smaller buoyancy compartment under the foredeck, and a substantial stowage section under the aft thwart (through which the mizzen is stepped). There is sleeping space on each side of the centreboard case.

The location of the mizzen mast allows for a tiller which is nearly 1.4 metres long, and yet the inside of the boat is free from its intrusion. One advantage of the balanced lug sails is that the main mast is moved well back from the stem (where it resides in Coquina) relieving the bow of weight and inertia - therefore the boat should be drier.

If you have a look at the design on my website www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au (under the buttons labeled 'Periwinkle Photos 1', 'Periwinkle Photos 2', and 'New Designs') you may pick up some ideas which will help you with your deliberations about Coquina, emergency buoyancy and lapstrake construction techniques.

For what it is worth, I think that Coquina is one of the most attractive propositions around, and the reported information that Nathanael Greene Herreshoff used her more than any other boat at his disposal should give you great encouragement.

I look forward to your posts about construction - it excites me a lot.

Ross Lillistone

Ross,
Not self-promotion at all, in fact I have an admission it was your article in AABB #61 and Periwinkle that got me started thinking seriously thinking about a mizzened or ketch daysailer.

I have well and truly been bitten by the woodworking and wooden boat bug and while my sailing has always been in go fast dinghies, cats and keel boat my attentions are now focused on traditional designs and built boats.

We amateurs are lucky these days with the number of builders and designers that are prepared to spend time producing web sites and visiting forums like this, so a big thanks to you, Mik, AD and PAR just to name a few who visit here regularly . So it has not been difficult to examine loads of designs which is when I came across Coquina but dismissed it as I am also mindful of time and skill or lack of it.
To quote your good self "The simpler and smaller the boat , the more likely it is that the building job will get finished".

Then I tripped over the glued version now that changed things but as I said this will be "the build" so please don't expect much action for a while. Probably lots of talk though

So Ross I'll keep looking over your shoulder at Periwinkles progress and good luck with it tis a great thing. I like the ideas you have incorporated its just that I'm a sucker for a plumb stem.

Cheers
Mike

A bit more on Coquinas handling and steering qualities.

I emailed Ned Trewartha who has completed a beautiful traditional built example (have a look here) and he was kind enough to respond.

In essence his experience was similiar to PAR in that while only sailing during trials and handover the rope steering took a little getting used to but worked well. To windward it was well balanced and pretty much sailed itself as the rudder sits solid but is easily adjusted.

Mike

Mike,

Thanks for the replies.

Like you, I am a sucker for the beauty of a plumb stem with a fine entry. My all-time favourite boat is the Dennison J. Lawlor-designed Pilot Schooner, Hesper, built in 1884. She has a superbly fine entry, and as plumb a stem as anybody could wish for!

I wish that I had been able to incorporate a plumb stem on my Periwinkle design, but it was not compatible with the lay of the wide planks I had decided to use (to reduce labour and to make the construction less intimidating to the amateur). The entry is still very fine, with reverse curvature to the waterlines forrard; and maybe the cut-away bow will be safer when running down the face of a wave. I turned her over this afternoon, and I have had my first good look at her right-side-up. I'll have a few extra photos on the website tomorrow or the next day. Currently working on the spars (hollow masts, solid yards, and solid booms).

Coquina looks superb to my eye - good luck with the project, and please keep us posted on your progress.

Ross Lillistone www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au

Ross,
Interesting the aspect of creating a pleasing design while fulfilling both the build and sailing qualities.
One of the things that struck me on Coquina is the number of planks or strakes (never sure what to call them) it initially looked slightly too many to me for the length of the boat but on further study it seemed this is a requirement to achieve a fair shape in the forward sections. Yes?

I have taken the liberty in starting another thread on hull shape and Periwinkle, hope you don't mind being pestered by dumb questions but I find the thinking that goes into a acheiving a hull shape that then can be built fascinating.

Regards
Mike