Thread: Dare I let the cat out of the bag?

How's the score going in the longest-winded post yet?

Wild Dingo
BoatMik
Mike Field
bitingmidge

All have to be in contention, but I can't pick a winner!



P

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

Wanting the design? I mean come on Mik!! You of all people must know that building a boat is nothing if its not an EMOTIONAL thing!!... emotion and compromise = boat!

Hi Dingo1

That's how I reasoned through it!

That it is emotional and not really price based - unless like that American agent you are charging double.

Then the emotions run the other way very quickly!!!!

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

There are no rich OZ designers - either we are happy living in near poverty or have to work other jobs to keep going financially. All are battlers.

I'm guessing Iain Murray lives near poverty. Well it's just the other side of the harbour and out a bit further!



P

Hi All,

My tone is not going to be quite as detached as Peter's view of Mike Field's postings - at least at the beginning of this - because Mike continues to misrepresent his position and also has a misunderstanding about the nature of the business.

So please be clear I am dealing with the misrepresentation and then the misunderstanding - not with the quality of the man or his business.
____________________________________

Mike,

Originally Posted by Mike Field

We are not in competition with that company (whose name I deliberately refrained from mentioning, I might point out.) For the record, we do not sell Iain's plans. Nor have we ever done so. Nor have we ever sought to do so.

What I do know is that your repeated assertions that my company is in competition with the other one are unfounded. To the best of my knowledge, not one of our products -- or even our agents' products -- is on their product list, nor is any of their products on ours.

By your own admission you are selling some of the same plan lines and have compared your business to theirs in your posts. You have compared your plans pricing policy on plans to theirs and declared theirs to be inferior to yours..

Of course you are a competitor. You can't attempt to take the middle ground on this - to attempt to be the sweet unbiased voice of reason - you blew that in your first post which was not sweet at all - streight for the jugular as I remember.

I don't know. It would depend on the terms of his agency agreement, one of which might restrict him from selling his own plans here. (That's what I suggested Bloggsy might like to find out.)

But surely Rob hasn't got Iain stitched up too, has he?

If you want to know - find out yourself. Don't make a public deal to get someone else to do it and imply at the same time that something underhand is going on.

As I said previously - it is Iain that holds all the cards - he can do anything he likes - and he made the decision - but you use the opportunity to slag off DF and promote your own position.

Play the man that made the decision.

so I can't comment on its value (except that judging by the figures quoted earlier it seems like it's a bit higher than it might be.)

You say you can't comment and then you do.

See Midge's post - I suspect you have little idea of the real costs involved in selling plans - and won't be around long unless the other parts of your business are supporting the plans side. Start logging the time you spend talking to clients about plans and see what that costs you. If it starts to build up you will have two choices - either start charging for it one way or another - or not offer your "superlative" service quite so much.

Since we're talking about Duck Flat, I need to tell you that while I haven't always seen eye-to-eye with the way Rob Ayliffe goes about things,

Robert Ayliffe has nothing to do with DF now - he has set up NISboats and has no interest or ongoing participation in Duck Flat.

And why do you NEED to tell me that you don't see eye to eye with his methods

I have the profoundest respect for Robert - and I don't always see eye to eye with him either. But in your case you seem to be attempting undermine his name and presence by casting doubt in the reader's mind as to his character and actions

Or how can one supplier's sponsorship of some sporting event or other help another supplier? Indeed, the total market might be made a little larger for all, but this is not some altruistically-intended outcome.

I think this is your basic problems

You can't see that altruism and business can go together.

Anyone who has got to know me through these forums will know where I stand. I believe that business and altruism are natural partners - and I operate that way right down the line.

Yes - I don't even expect to make a buck. But I have been able to survive so far

Everyone here knows that I have plugged other designers and plugged other peoples products, and struggle hard not to slag off the opposition or cast doubt on their integrity - this is altruism mixed with business.

I understand that for every person who I can get involved in this boat building lark it expands the industry. I may never make a buck directly from that person.

I was the first full time employee of DF back in the days when it was two of us freezing in a tin shed back of Robert's house in Mt Barker. I worked with Duck Flat for many years and continue to have a relationship with Duck Flat because they share that same ethos.

I don't CARE whether people buy plans from DF, David, Iain, you or someone else. All I care about is that people find a supplier that meets their needs and will deal with them honestly and fairly and help them as much as they need.

I dont CARE if they buy one of my plans or someone else's. All I care about is that they get involved and find a boat that is designed well and will do what they want - if it is a rewarding experience then it grows the industry.

I want EVERYONE to do well - and that's why I will never slag off another business or cast doubts about its integrity.

one supplier's sponsorship of some sporting event or other help another supplier?

"some sporting event" somewhat underplays it - don't you think.

Clearly you are a new-comer to this part of the industry or haven't looked very far outside your own area of self-interest.

You clearly have no idea of the amount of work that Robert Ayliffe, Rob Denney, Ian Smith, John Young, Arnie Duckworth, John Wood, Nick Masterman (bless you Nick), Bruce McConkey, Ian and Kathy Hawkins, the various staffs at AABB and many others have done so there is an industry here for you to enjoy being a part of.

You also have no idea of the interrelationships between this group and how we have all been helping each other in quite direct ways.

Not one of these people is rich or even close to it. They have all sweated blood for this industry - many have put their houses and family life on the line - and prayed like hell that their idea to make things grow was the right one at the right time.

David, me, and heaps of other designers wouldn't be around at all if it wasn't for all their efforts and Duck Flat have been a huge proportion of it. Ask David some time.

So you wouldn't be selling David's plans if it wasn't for them.

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

I'm guessing Iain Murray lives near poverty. Well it's just the other side of the harbour and out a bit further!



P

Damn it - got me ...

Um well ... different market segement?

I suppose he will sell plans for a boat for a couple of hundred dollars? Yes? No?

MIK

Originally Posted by Boatmik

Damn it - got me ...

Um well ... different market segement?

I suppose he will sell plans for a boat for a couple of hundred dollars? Yes? No?

Last conversation I had with him was something along the lines of him giving himself an uppercut before he undercut.....

Cheers,

P

Last Conversation I had with him was him asking me whether he could park his immaculately restored VW Beetle in the Vice Commodore's parking spot for 10 minutes.

No, sorry Mr Murray (it was in my 5 year break from design and I was driving a Tender in Rushcutter's Bay as well as watching the parking area like a hawk).

He was terribly nice about it.

The time before that was lugging his girlfriend's 420 (one of the heaviest dinghies for it's size - AND theres nowhere to hold comfortably - my boat at the time was a Moth) across about 200 metres of mudflats at The Spit in Sydney.

It was such a crap gig I had to keep making comments about how heavy the boat was the whole way.

He was terribly nice about it.

Afterwards ...

Was that Iain Murray?

Well, the Porsche had "IM" numberplates and a towbar.

So, yes, Iain Murray - Maaaaaaaaaaaaate

MIK

Well, this seems to be getting a bit out of hand. No sooner do Peter and I settle our diferences, at least up to a point, than Michael chimes in again. It's a bit difficult keeping up....

Michael, this is what I'd written before your last post, which clearly now deserves a further reply -- but I don't dare wait to write it, or there'll be something else to reply to again in the meanwhile.

You said --

"[Iain] deserves equal criticism - but I don't see any from you - or dingo or Mike."

"Criticism" in the sense that it's his actions that may have contributed to higher-than-perceived-warranted prices. But they're Iain's plans, so really you can't criticise him for selling them at whatever price he wants to. Or make any agency arrangement he wants with whomever he wants to negotiate one. (Unless of course it precludes the agent from having to compete with anyone, when it's illegal.) If as an end-result of his bargaining process with agents he does himself out of customers (or even prices himself out of business,) then that's just a natural commercial consequence. And sad for us, because then we'd no longer have access to his drawings.

(By the way, this unfortunate end-result has occurred in recent years for people wanting to buy Maurice Griffiths' plans (albeit it's happened for different reasons.) The Eventide Owners' Group in the UK has done stirling things in locating a few of the plans, but many of them seem now to have gone for good -- really sad for those who wanted to build an MG design and now can't.)

Your argument about cost-recovery is quite right. It's things like the ones you mentioned, plus the ones I mentioned myself, that have to be covered by an agent's margin if they're going to be agents at all. And if the producer of the product wants an agent to work on his behalf he would normally expect to pay the agent by discounting his price to him. This is what agency is all about. If it's not worth the agent's while why would he take it on?

Different agents have different views of what is worth their while. Going back to an earlier point, those who have big overheads and big on-costs need to make a bigger margin to cover them and still make a profit. But at some point along a sliding scale, they can't keep recovering all their costs from the producer or there'll be nothing left for him. So they do it from the customer -- which is when the prices start to go up. And depending on their market clout, what competition if any exists, and what value the potential customer places on the product, then either they'll continue to sell the product or they won't.

In the final analysis, the producer makes the decision at what price to sell to the agent to handle sales for him, and whether he will tie his own hands by agreeing to not sell in competition. Those are rightly his decisions to make, and whatever consequences flow from them are rightly his to bear.
___________

A note on so-called undercutting

The word "undercuttng" clealry has emotional overtones for some people, so let me explain what I mean by it and see if I can't convince you that "undercutting the RRP" can in fact be perfectly legitimate, open, and above-board, and that the designer can make extra profit thereby.

As I've said before, the designer sets his price, to whomever he wants, at whatever level he wants. Let's say you're a designer who can produce your plans for $250, and would like to sell them retail (ie to end-users) for $500. (Clearly I'm over-simplifying, especially regarding design production costs, but it will serve to illustrate the argument.) So you set up shop, and for every customer who walks in your door and buys you make $250 profit. And let's say for argument's sake that you produce a steady supply of customers at the rate of one a week who each pay you your $500 RRP. Then your weekly profit is $250.

The first question that strikes you is, "How do I get more customers to walk through the door?"

So suppose you strike a bargain with an agent you trust, whereby you sell him your plans for only $350, hoping that in return he'll be able to increase sales for you. Note -- the designer's price is now $350, and it was the designer who set it. It's not the $500 RRP that he charges someone who walks in off the street. And he accepts that his profit margin on sales to the agent is going to be $100, not the $250 it would be from his own retail sales. This is still a profit -- just a smaller one -- and the agent has not taken advantage of him because it was the designer himself who asked for (and got) that price.

Now suppose further that this agent finds a new end-user and sells a set of plans to him for $450. This is $50 less than the designer's RRP, granted. And you could say that the RRP was being undercut. But the designer hasn't been undercut. He got the price he asked -- $350 -- which gave him a profit.

Okay, why would he sell to an agent for $350, thereby undercutting his own RRP and the profit he could make by selling at it? Well, extending our scenario a little further, suppose that the agent's marketing produces just one additional customer for the plans each week. Then the agent has earned both himself and the designer $100 profit a week each. And the agent's client has saved $50 into the bargain. Everybody has won something (except the RRP customer -- but even he hasn't lost anything.)

Here I have to use the life-insurance salesman's disclaimer: obviously I can't guarantee any of the figures. The prices are probably wrong and the sales figures certainly are. But the principle is perfectly correct, and it's what drives agency agreements. No player -- including the designer -- need lose anything. Most players -- including the designer -- will win something.
___________

And I'm afraid the rest will have to wait. Suffice it to say at the moment that I've noted Michael's post and that I'm in agreement with some of his comments, but also that in some cases I think his statements are incorrect and his judgments wrong. I'll give a considered answer when I get a chance.

Mike

Originally Posted by Daddles

Who do you support?
The bloke who's going to give you the best service.

Theoretically, I'd rather buy from the designer - he gets all the money and as Mik has said, he deserves it

I disagree. I send customers to my agents all the time - pretty much for the reason Mike pointed out that agents will handle almost all queries about building the thing and also make serious efforts to expand my business.

I also sell plans directly - particularly when turnover drops (like for the 5 weeks at the onset of winter) so more of the smaller amount of money heads my way.

The designer (me) goes into these arrangements with dealers because it is good for him.

He (me) wants these agents supported.

It is also good for the customer - there is a real limit to the number of enquiries that I can handle properly - and when the dealer sells a plan he gets the responsibility - who also stands a chance of selling some ply or epoxy.

So Richard - I disagree mostly.

I might DESERVE 100% of the plan price but I DON'T WANT IT. You and others get my personal service because our relationship is established or because you have a custom request. And if I don't know SOME of my clients directly I'll go nuts - might as well be in a padded cell.

HEY I AM IN A PADDED CELL!!!!

MIK

And there in those last few posts from all three of you is why I dont enjoy discussing price... pricing structures... agents commissions... designers commission etc etc etc seems every time it comes up a whole lot of angst and personal attack happens... setting good people against other good people for no good reason over subjects that we personally cannot change.

I like you all... Mike Ive known the longest well over 5 years now and weve shared an immense amount over that time both boat related and personal simply put hes a mate and a good one... Mik Ive known for not so long probably about a year or two eh? but still we share a common bond a love of boats and our varying ecclectic tastes seem to match weve grown to like each other and have respect for each other again a mate... Midgey is my nemisis... well I take the git that way! hes the bloke that sits in the corner egging you on taking you to task havin a go at you for slackin of... good things that one needs from time to time... but still Midgey is probably the most recent that Ive come to know and still I maintain a friendship with him...

I refuse to take any sides in this "discussion" as I like all three of you... I disagree with you all on some level yet agree with you all on others... that to me is the ideal wherein you can agree to disagree and leave it at that without loosing a friendship over something none has control of... and hence why I dislike and discourage discussion over pricings of plans from designers and agents... from my own point I would prefer to source the price that best suits my budget at the time if that is from the designer so be it if however I can get then from an agent cheeper then thats where I will get them... if however one or the other is rude arrogant insulting or otherwise a pain in the ass I will say something regarding that... as I will for anything ie: Timbecon awhile back... it behoves anyone who is selling or an agent to sell anything to treat their customers and potential customers with respect dignity and common courtesy... in the manner of onselling plans from another company in another country it certainly doesnt behove them to jack up the price simply based on being in Aussie!... well not if they want my money it doesnt... same with designers... treat people with respect and common decency and you will do well dont and its over before it starts.

I did that with Wharram... I did not like the attitude of the Aussie distributor so I contacted Ruth direct from their site and after several contacts with her wherein I explained my experiences with the bloke down here I bought them from her... no problem no issue end of story... the distributor lost out... but see there would have been no need for him to do so if he had simply treated me the prospective customer with respect and courtesy... as for the agent for ClarkCraft here well in that case both ClarkCraft AND their agent lost out since after the attitude displayed to this potential customer I said "stuff you jack" and took my money elsewhere... does that bother me? not the slightest it should I guess since theres a dirth of power cat designs of the 19 -22ft range out there but I wont accept abuse which I consider rudeness and attitude the height of from anyone who would sell something to me.

Anyway... This is an intrinsic problem with the net in that its written... and so being its easy to take offence at... read the wrong things into and generally get upset with something someone says... and its the reason why so many people get into so many friggin arguments on the net... its hard to clearly define what you want to say without going into a bloody long winded expaination of every friggin word you say... lest someone takes something you say out of context.

Please let us stop this bickering! You are all right and yet you are all wrong... on some level accept it shake hands and come out mates

Originally Posted by Mike Field

The first question that strikes you is, "How do I get more customers to walk through the door?"

I guess the thrust of my argument is that you can also do this to attract more custom:

Same thing, same message to your customers in the long run. Teach them to buy when there's a sale on, and that's the only time they'll buy.

Do you know anyone that pays full price for a Pizza? Nope.

The undercutting business is so strong that they've set themselves a permanent discount situation.

Why would the bloke at the local snack bar sell you a soft-drink at lunchtime at a discount? He wouldn't. So why do you think discounting plans increases sales?

Woo hoo, I can save $50 on the plans now honey, NOW we can afford to build that $30,000 boat!

Sorry Mike, that's one we'll never see eye to eye on! (But I'll buy from you next time of course! )

Cheers,

P (If you need a coupon, I've got a few spares you can have!)


pic stolen from: http://www.lowculture.com/

Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

Please let us stop this bickering! You are all right and yet you are all wrong... on some level accept it shake hands and come out mates

Hey Shane! That's what makes an argument worth while!

If it all gets taken personally then no-one's learnt a thing. If there are three points of view here (and I can only see one, the others are wrong!), as you say to an extent they overlap, some will agree others won't, but at least those that haven't thought about the issue will have been exposed to it, so all will learn a bit.

I'm certainly trying to impress on consumers that there's more to keeping a retailer alive than buying at sale time, and at the same time think retailers should be looking to the next sale, not the one in hand!

If we weren't so deep in argument, we'd only have to put up with your next ideal boat description anyway!

I think I'm about through with it anyway, but thanks for the prod.

cheers,

P

I've read quite a few posts from Dingo and I reckon that would be one of the most eloquent yet.

Well put.


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Originally Posted by bloggs1968

I've read quite a few posts from Dingo and I reckon that would be one of the most eloquent yet.

Well put.


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Don't flamin' encourage him

Richard