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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daddles View Post
    In other words, the length just sounds scary ... and won't fit in my shed - Sixpence fills it and she's on 14'.

    It looks the goods though. Hell, I might even build it with the stupid ribs.

    Richard
    Not if you want it light!

    MIK

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  3. #32
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    Howdy,

    People play pretty fast and loose with traditional boat names these days.

    I think a wherry was a sailing or towable canal boat for carrying cargo in the Norfolk Broads - waterways cut out of soft peat - it is also used for a variety of rowboats - I don't know why it is so much used for rowboats - but at any rate I think they were harbour boats.

    Lightweight Dories of around 16ft I have talked about elsewhere - not recommended for rough water.

    The Cosine wherry and the Pygmy don't answer the open water criteria that we were talking about. Their height and width will mean that they catch the wind way more than the types we were talking about and the wide sterns mean that waves will knock them off course more strongly than a hull with a more symmetrical volume distribution underwater.

    These two suggestions are nice boats for other functions though - they can carry much more than one person with very few problems and can swing longer oars without outriggers. But their function doesn't meet the criteria.

    Best wishes
    Michael.

    (Something that may be useful - for the Cosine Wherry - there used to be a problem with one of the frames
    See http://www.woodenboat.com/forum//showthread.php?t=114
    The comment that it is too much for an amateur builder is incorrect I think - it is not too bad.
    Some other mention of the same problem here
    https://www.woodworkforums.com/archiv...p/t-40561.html.
    or on Amazon
    [ame="http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/0917436024"]Amazon.ca: Rip, Strip, & Row: A Builders Guide to the Cosine Wherry: J. D. Brown: Books[/ame]

    THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT IS A BAD PLAN - MAKE THE MOULD AS PER THE PLAN AND THEN ALTER ITS SHAPE SO IT RUNS FAIR - Just ignore any areas that are too low and let the strips run fair.

    Maybe they have fixed the problem now - check with them and see if it has been corrected - one of the threads above I give a rundown on a method that can be used to "loft" a set of moulds that have been set up on the strongback.

    Best wishes
    Michael

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    The Cosine wherry and the Pygmy don't answer the open water criteria that we were talking about. Their height and width will mean that they catch the wind way more than the types we were talking about and the wide sterns mean that waves will knock them off course more strongly than a hull with a more symmetrical volume distribution underwater.
    Well maybe Daddles could throw together a Teal.
    I've had mine out in some pretty choppy stuff & only shipped what I knocked off crests with the oars. Even when retards have crossed my ends within a boat length at not-quite-planing speed, i.e. a big hole in the water followed by a solid wall of it. All in all, I've been quite astonished at how dry it stays on lumpy water. Very "lively" mind you !!
    cheers
    AJ

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    The Cosine wherry and the Pygmy don't answer the open water criteria that we were talking about. Their height and width will mean that they catch the wind way more than the types we were talking about and the wide sterns mean that waves will knock them off course more strongly than a hull with a more symmetrical volume distribution underwater.

    These two suggestions are nice boats for other functions though - they can carry much more than one person with very few problems and can swing longer oars without outriggers. But their function doesn't meet the criteria.

    Best wishes
    Michael.
    Yes. This boat will need the open water ability. The closest patch of decent sized wet stuff near me is the Gulf off Adelaide - windy and, being a shallow gulf, likely to get choppy. Then there's the River Murray which does windy very well (though not overly rough) but it does have some decent currents.

    If I'm silly enough to head in the Lake Alexandrina, I'll have to buy a Land Rover (cue comments about the stupidity and short sightedness of letting that lake system die through lack of water) ... oh okay, back on topic, the lakes are very shallow even when they do have water in them and with a decent wind, get very choppy. Am I right in suggesting that the lakes are some of the most dangerous waters around Adelaide, if only because of the speed at which they can turn nasty?

    Having rowed bad boats in strong winds, windage is bloody important and South Oz is a rather windy place (too many politicians relative to the population).

    Mik, did you see me rowing into the Goolwa boat festival last year? Very windy. Decent chop. Redback handled it but I certainly wasn't comfortable, mind you, I was scared stiff because I had my two kids in the boat with me. But those are the sorts of conditions this boat should be able to handle with ease and for a long distance. You did your PDR high speed run in similar conditions.

    I've seen a variety of wherrys over the years and quite like the look and style. The question is, will they do the job? I don't want some high spirited sports boat, I need a practical boat, one that'll carry a bit of a load and a couple of passengers, but she'll be no work boat either and most of the time will have no more than lunch and some fishing gear in her.

    A 12'6" double ender does seem a bit short - how much do you lose for the ends.
    I'm thinking that a 17' double ender probably equates to a 15' transomed boat, with the advantage of the pointy bum in a following sea.

    Let's take the Herreshoff as the ideal from a performance point of view - fast and seaworthy. However, at 17' she's long the man handle and will need two scarfs in every plank.

    Something just under 15' would need one scarf in every plank. All else being equal (which it won't be of course), there'll be a slight drop in speed but needn't be in seaworthiness. It'll be a little easier to store and handle (eg 15' will go in my shed). But is there a design in that range that'll compete with the Herreshoff?

    Richard
    dammit, I'm supposed to be writing an assignment, NOT thinking boats

  6. #35
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    Howdy Daddles - the lakes are no less dangerous than the Gulf - but people think that they are safer because they are big and shallow.

    The first big sail I did on Beth was my first sail on Lake Alexandrina.

    I am smart enough to know that if you want to come back easily then you head off toward the wind - not away from it - and I had checked for the possibility of a wind direction change (radio and lateness in the day).

    So headed off on a shy reach to the other side.

    Sailed

    Sailed

    Sailed some more. "is it getting closer"

    Sailed

    and sailed.

    In the end I turned back as it was getting late.

    You see, as a New South Welshman I am used to our local lakes - some are quite large - but generally you can sail right across in a reasonably quick boat like Beth in 20 minutes or so in similar light/moderate breezes. So the scale of the SA lakes did blow me away a bit initially.

    And here they are going dry!!!
    ___________________________________________

    Just for out of towners ...

    Because of the rising salinity, tubeworm (sometimes called "coral" in Syd - line like calcium carbonate accretions a few mm in diameter that you get on the surface of a moored boat) has gone crazy in the supposedly freshwater Murray Lakes. There are marina pylons with a good foot of the stuff growing that has appeared in just a few months.

    Clearly the mechanisms that keep everything in check are breaking down.

    My friends are saying that they keep finding the local turtles with similar several inch thick accretions of the worm casings on their shells stranded on shore or stranded in pools. They scrape them off then release them. They now check every morning. But it is going to be a tiny fraction of the problems that are being caused.

    It is really critical down here - the specific Queensland farm companies that thought it was a "free for all" with the recent floods and diverted them into massive dams should be shot and told to pump it back at their cost (not necessarily in that order).

    Not talking about people who took normal type amounts.

    Similar for all the Victorian Farmers that dug the hundreds of km of illegal channels that were uncovered a few weeks ago.

    Same for everyone who has a shower for more than 4 minutes or those who think it is OK to sneak a bit of extra water on the garden.

    Pardon me for sounding angry ... but I am angry ... at the thoughtless selfishness of it all.

    Sorry - I know everyone here is aware of this, in general terms at least, but the river here is DYING in front of us.

    I don't want to talk about the politics - it is a victim to the same problem - thoughtless selfishness - that's what it comes down to in EVERY case.

    A kick in the pants for people who think that water that goes down street drains is wasted - it is environmental flow - it is what normally happens!! Everything we take is borrowed (and in the worst cases - stolen) from the environment. We need the environment way more than it needs us.

    And praise the people who use their washing up or some of their shower water on the garden or flush their toilets less often or fit watertanks (within reason) to their houses or use "waterless" systems in public urinals, or change their gardens to species that can handle local conditions etc etc etc. There are so many smart things happening too.

    Sorry for the diatribe

    MIK

  7. #36
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    I have a 13' 4" deep water double ender that would be suitable. It's available in traditional lap, glued lap, multi chine taped seam (three chines per side) and I'd be interested in a strip planked round bilge version. The lapped hull has six planks per side with a single garboard, which I feel is what keeps this style of craft stable.

    It's designed to carry a load in rough conditions, so she loads down evenly and sweetly without weird handling issues cropping up. She hasn't much rocker, so tracking is good and water flows around her easily, considering she's a moderately burdened 13' pulling boat.

    The original was intended for rough service in deep water barrier island hopping. He and his grandson would go fishing and camping for the weekend. The boat has a small transom, able to carry a trolling motor when you get arm weary. I haven't seen this boat in many years, but the last report was "she's surprisingly dry for a little open boat" (his words).

    The lines shown don't do the real thing justice, she's pretty as a lapper. When I converted these plans to digital, I drew up a taped seam version. Picture this hull with every other plank missing and you'll get the idea, the shape is essentially the same, just broader stakes.

    It also should be noted, this boat doesn't do the following sea boogie, that may pulling boats display. She rises and settles softly, with whatever is running.

  8. #37
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    Hey Paul,

    That design is by some bloke called Riccelli.

    What's that all about?

    MIK

  9. #38
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    Don't be sorry about the diatribe. Truth simply is.

    I wanted to go paddling at Tooleybuc last month, but couldn't be bothered launching. Too far to carry over mud flats & rock reefs, into water littered with exposed reefs & snags. (see thumbs at end)

    A mate in SA planning tells me that we have about 12 months water in the system to meet domestic, stock & business needs, not including hortiiculture. This is actually more than at this time last year. They won a concession from NSW & Vic last year to store some of our water up in the Hume instead of downstream.

    None of the flooding in Qld will get to us, either as human use or environmental flow. Over half went west towards the Cooper. Of the balance in the Darling catchment, most simply absorbed into parched ground before it even got to the NSW border. Some into the cotton growers' dams (they mostly grabbed Cooper system water). The balance is being absorbed by NSW. Qld's wet season is now over, La Nina has nicked off again, & it will be 6-9 months before there'll be much chance of a repeat. Probably much longer.

    Only bit in the whole thing I'd disagree with is this one sentence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    A kick in the pants for people who think that water that goes down street drains is wasted - it is environmental flow - it is what normally happens!!
    MIK
    Not because it is fundamentally wrong, but because I think it is the way that run-off is delivered into the ocean that is the problem. It should be filtering out slowly through mangroves & being diluted by the tide. Big run-off events should be spreading across a flood-plain before slowly reaching the mangroves then as above.

    It's this business of rushing it past the houses & delivering it direct, unfiltered & undiluted straight to the seagrass banks which is the problem. As the mangroves & upstream filtering flats no longer exist, better that we just catch it & use it & reduce our dependance upon the Murray. My limited rain harvesting system will hopefully be running by end of July. Hope to use at least half of what lands on my roof, relying upon mains only in summer.
    cheers
    AJ

  10. #39
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    Woods design at http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/ has a couple of open water row boats. But both are 16' long.

    The original of Bolger's Gypsy is supposed to have rowed it 160km or so along the coast when he collected it. He also has a pea-pod or two which might be worth a look.

    Maybe the real problem is too much choice?

    ==

    PAR - I have seen quite a bit about you on th' Intarweb, but I can't find a website for you to peruse your designs. Do you have one ?

    cheers
    AJ

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by b.o.a.t. View Post
    Woods design at http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/ has a couple of open water row boats. But both are 16' long.
    The Linnet from that site has "a small daggerboard is fitted to help prevent being blown sideways by the wind".
    Could someone please explain to me why this is an indication of good design? Being the ignorant lump I am, I would have thought that a well designed rowboat would have no need of a daggerboard.

    Richard

  12. #41
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    The more I look at PAR's little double ender, the more I like her I wouldn't use the wee transom for a trolling motor though, I'd fit a notch there for a long scull

    Richard

  13. #42
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    B.O.A.T., I haven't found the need to generate additional business from a web site, but have found one would be a good place for others to see my efforts. To this end, I've just begun setting a site up. It will be running by the end of the month I suspect (I hope).

    The pea pod is a well burdened craft, but a very capable sea boat. They move well and have huge capacity, but even a lightly built one will be on the heavy side as a single.

    Daddles, your conclusions are founded. A dagger may be needed in a craft with more bearing area and rocker, one suited to sail as well as row. With the additional rocker, she'll maneuver smartly, if you want it to or not, so a dagger or skeg may be necessary to help her hold course.

    This is the difficulty designing a boat that will sail and row. If it rows well, then she's not firm enough to stand against a press. If she's stiff enough to stand, then you're dragging more boat around then you need when rowing.

    There is a notch for a sculling oar in RYD-12.6's transom Daddles.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAR View Post
    There is a notch for a sculling oar in RYD-12.6's transom Daddles.
    I saw that

    Sculling is something I've planned for the rowboat from the start - I will be fitting something for Sixpence too, though in her case it might be a rowlock to take a standard oar - I haven't thought that far yet.

    I like rowing but it seems to me that when heading into a crowded wharf area, you want to see where you're going and being only 4' wide as opposed to 16' wide has to be an advantage. Hence the scull

    Early in Redback's life, I found myself broadside in a Willow tree. I forget what I was doing, checking something out in there or something equally daft. It was deliberate, I do remember that. Anyway, I pulled myself out sideways simply by using a sculling action with the oar.

    Richard

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daddles View Post
    The more I look at PAR's little double ender, the more I like her
    I agree, tidy little thing I recon.

    Quote Originally Posted by PAR View Post
    B.O.A.T., I haven't found the need to generate additional business from a web site, but have found one would be a good place for others to see my efforts. To this end, I've just begun setting a site up. It will be running by the end of the month I suspect (I hope).
    Looking forward to that, I appreciate your contributions to this forum.

    Mike

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by b.o.a.t. View Post
    Only bit in the whole thing I'd disagree with is this one sentence.
    cheers
    AJ
    I was all ready to be miffed - but I agree!

    MIK

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