Thread: Slippery slope?

Originally Posted by Caliban

Guys
It seems I have discovered another slippery slope on which to mix metaphors.
I've just bought a caravan and therefore cannot take my 60hp outboard powered runabout away any distance. So I need a boat light enough to be car topped. I have a really old 6hp evinrude that is probably about 4 hp by the new standards (measured at the prop). I have reasonable confidence in my ability to construct a wooden boat but not my ability to finish things. I'm not quite as adept at procrastinating as Midge but close..
I have in mind the following designs
Ross Lillistone's Flint
http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/

Steve Redman’s Whisp
http://www.sredmond.com/index_boat.htm

Uncle John’s 11 foot skiff
www.unclejohns.com/skiff/Default.htm

any advice or thoughts would be welcome.
I have a vt commorore wagon to carry the boat on so it needs to be rather narrow, compared to what I'd need if I had something like a landcruiser with an enormous roofrack.

What about this ?http://www.bowdidgemarinedesigns.com...ushulu_12.html

You'll need the Australian builders plate data (http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Home/Regis...uilders_plate/) which is included with Mark's plans but not with the overseas ones. Not too beamy either.

regards,

AD

Thanks AD
I've just had a look at that site. Looks promising except it's over 5 feet wide. Might need roof rack extensions.
I'll have a look at your webpage as well.

Wot's wrong with Mik's Rowboat or his Handy Punt?

Richard

(just teasing but they're both car top-able, one being a rowing skiff and the other being an outboard powered punt)

Ok Guys
Time to clarify a few points.
I pretty much know what I want in a boat.
I have had lts of experience with fibreglass and aluminium fishing boats.
Dad had a 12 foot dehavilland car topper II, that looked very similar to the bowdidgemarine boat that bloggs1968 posted a link to. I loved that little boat, but it was a prick to row.
I still have a 16foot clark aluminium powered by a 60hp four stroke yamaha and it is light economical, but boy do I know all about getting pounded about offshore. It is too full in the bow to slice through waves, it just slams. It is very safe in a following sea and never broaches. I understand about trade-offs
I just sold a 16 foot fibreglass canoe because although it was quick and easy to paddle, it felt twitchy to me. I've paddled B-Line wobbegongs(14ft plastic) for hundreds of kms and they are absolutely indestructable and very stable but oh so slow and heavy. I had a 12ft nylex canoe that was cute but like paddling a bath tub with the handbrake on.
I still have a couple of plastic sit on top kayaks that are fun but slow.
So.
I want a boat that can be car topped, used with a 6hp motor, rowed if necessary, can carry my wife and me and some fishing-picnic gear, doesn't need to win any races but does need to be dry, stable and not slam and bash like a punt does.
Is there such an animal?
That is why I didn't consider the Michael Storer punt or the rowboat.
If I am wrong about the suitability of either I'm happy to be educated.
I just happen to like the designs of the whisp and the flint. I am thinking that the flint probably fulfils my requirements best of the boats I've looked at.
Please tell me if I'm wrong or if you know of a better design.

G'day Caliban

Looking around the web, there are literally hundreds of power boat designs to choose from, all at various prices ranging from a few dollars and upwards.

Many of these designs however, are not Australian Builders plate compliant.
In Australia, the APB is now becoming mandatory

National & State Government Recreational boating regulations
New South Wales

• New recreational vessels can not be registered unless they have an ABP affixed.
• From March 2009, it is an offence in NSW to sell a new recreational boat that doesn’t have an ABP affixed.

Purchasing a set of plans, needs a lot of careful thought. not only to furfill your requirements, but also to meet Goverment legislation. It doesn't mean it can't be done. However, finding someone willing enough to calculate and provide the information required for the plate can cost you a lot of money. This does not include the extra expense of making the boat compliant.

It becomes the chicken and the egg syndrome. Build the boat with the possibiliy of having to tear parts of it apart to make it compliant, or:
Take the plans to someone competant who can look it over, take a lot of measurements and crunch the calculations, redraw or sketch the required changes and then build. Either way... its going to cost you $$$$$

In regards to our clients, we've already taken this into consideration and all our designs are ABP compliant. This saves you $$$$ and makes it easier for you

Its up to you how or what you choose, but its just food for thought.
Happy Boat hunting !
regards
Mark

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/products.php?cat=15

also look at the bhc. Canoe stern so not outboard friendly but a lovely design.

If your concerned about pounding I'd saty away from flat bottoms.

Also of course

http://gaboats.com/

if you want to be a bit radical So sexy though....and no worries geting it on the roof racks....

Mark,

I think you are being somewhat alarmist and maybe a bit of cross promotion that they should get one of your designs too? Mark is a good designer by the way .. if one of his boats suits your needs then it is a good route too.

The second part refers to NEW boats being sold by a dealer. Not relevant here.

There are links to real information on this thread
https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...lder%27s+plate

Boats will not need a plate if they are: second hand; aquatic toys; amphibious vehicles; canoes, kayaks or similar boats designed to be paddle-powered such as surf skis; hydrofoils or hovercraft; pedal powered boats; personal watercraft carrying no more than two people; racing boats; rowing shells used for racing or rowing training; sailboards; sailing boats; submersibles and surf row boats.

NMSC website May 2009

The builders plate is small cheese if the designer of the boat wants to help with the info - it is pretty basic. You can make it yourself and there are a couple of other threads here too talking about it specifically.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...lder%27s+plate

The requirements for registration vary from state to state.

Only for 'registered' boats though ... so if it falls outside one of the registerable classes you don't need to worry.

MIK

Oh .. and from memory, the builders plate becomes simpler for really little motor boats.

Oh Dear
Why do I always start #### fights.
I just wanted some advice on the suitability of some plans.
Mark's designs appeal, especially the unfinished 3.65m v nose punt.
I keep thinking maybe a eureka canoe would suit my purposes, so Mik's designs appeal too. There is nothing paraochial about my queries.
Damian, that bhc is an awesome looking bit of gear as well as is another on further down that page the name of which I can't remember.
So many decisions. Spoiled by choice.
Please everyone feel free to confuse me further with more good examples.

Mik/Caliban and all,

I looked at the OP's requirements (6hp motor, car "topable" light weight) and thought about available designs. The OP also advised that he wasn't that good at finishing things so I interpreted that as a boat that needed to be quick to build.

In Australia, there aren't too many people who are designing what is essentially a lightweight timber "tinnie". Bowdidge Marine Designs are one, Murray Isles ( http://web.archive.org/web/200707060...igns/menu.html) has some as well and no doubt some others.

One of the designs suggested (Whisp) IMO would not handle the OP's outboard very well.

There are a myriad of overseas designs as well that people can choose from but the problem with these, that has been pointed out is that you need to get data to put on the ABP (Australian Builders Plate).

In my business we have had extensive discussions with the National Maritime Safety Committee regarding the ABP and small craft- not only for craft that we build but also for boat kits that we provide for clients to build . From these discussions and the relevant legislation, we have been advised that if a craft is outboard powered or "potentially" could be outboard powered then it needs an ABP. The example given to me by NMSC was for a rowing boat (not a shell) that had the ability for a motor to be placed on the transom without modification to the vessel. This boat would need an ABP even if a motor was not on the boat as one "could" be put on by a future owner.

MIK, do you give ABP data for the rowing version of the GIS? We do traditional clinker dinghies here and as a rowing boat we need to have an ABP because an outboard "could" be fitted - not because one is fitted.

There was also no difference if the builder was a pro or an amateur - the ABP was still required. There are exceptions to the rule for particular boat types such as rowing shells and surf skis etc.

One interesting point they advised was that they do get queries about the Builders from people who have purchased plans from overseas for boats like Chris Craft/Hackers etc. They advised that to build directly to these plans could result in a boat not being able to be registered as it would not be builders plate compliant. That would be pretty disappointing after a few years of hard work.

Every state is different and NSW has recently introduced legislation that requires the "responsible person" who provides the builders plate data to be an approved person by Maritime NSW. The legislation has not nominated who is approved but the NMSC advised they were looking at people like marine surveyors and naval architects.

If anyone is unsure of their build and ABP compliance, give John Henry a call at NMSC on 02 9247 2124


Bureaucracy gone mad?? Sure is but we have to comply. If you think this is bad, you should look at trying to get a boat certified for export to a country within the EU. The European recreational craft directive is certainly an interesting one!

Part of the reason I suggested the design from Mark Bowdidge is that the data required for the builders plate is provided in the plans, saving the builder some cash (and it is a good design that fits the bill). Some designers may provide this info for free and others may charge for it. I would certainly encourage any prospective plan buyer to ask if the data is available ( and I believe that the person providing the data has to be an Australian entity).

Anyway Caliban, no fights started. Just call it a "juicy" discussion in which hopefully we'll all come away with something - including some more design suggestions for you (like this http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/spin.htm - expat Aussie designer Graham Byrnes).

regards,

AD

PS Beautiful thing is - sailboats are exempt so there is probably something in that for all of us

Thanks Andrew
So if someone builds a canoe and someone buys it and hangs a motor off the side on a bracket clamped across both gunwhales, the builder is responsible? Or is that bracket a substantial enough alteration?
Speaking of which, does anyone have any thoughts on the bhc by Jemwatersports?

MIK, do you give ABP data for the rowing version of the GIS? We do traditional clinker dinghies here and as a rowing boat we need to have an ABP because an outboard "could" be fitted - not because one is fitted.

Mark has a good idea of including them with the plan, I've done the calcs for other boats a couple of times.

And I do have to do an update of all my plans in the next few weeks to get rid of mentions of my old email address so I can cancel my Ozemail account. So may as well make sure motorable boats will comply.

I guess if I am not included when they work out who a 'competent person' is I can fish up someone who is and will.

Cheers.

Just looking through .. there are three people who can authorise the builders plate.

The builder
The importer
Or a competent person.

Point is that they accept liability for information on the plate.

If it complies with the legislation then there is no risk to the person authorising the plate even if something happens to the boat as all they are doing is showing it complies.

So it looks like there is little risk to me if I give some information that makes the boat comply and the builder incorporates that then makes his or her own builders plate.

I will do some checking up.

Best wishes
MIK

Geez Caliban,

You named this thread most appropriately!

MIK