Thread: Future of the Australian Electricity Market

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

But does the shock wave travel at the speed of sound, or the speed of light, or something else?

Graeme

Very good question. I have to go and do some welding, so I will leave that one to the super sleuths that I know abound here. However, I am pretty certain it is a lot faster than I can run.

Regards
Paul

PS: I couldn't help myself....Close to the speed of sound and still a lot quicker than my ute! Then the question becomes how far does it travel with devastating consequence?

Here is a video from an ex-gov detailing some intel about wind farms that I invite the thread participants to watch and/or consider?

Originally Posted by KG Lang

Here is a video from an ex-gov detailing some intel about wind farms ...

Either yet more fake news ... or a profound analysis of the competence of political advisors and their employers.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

... FenceFurniture wants picture(s) for this post ...

Happy to oblige, FF, but I do need some technical advice.

From your experience, should the camera be hand held or on a tripod? And what shutter speed have you found works best?

Originally Posted by KG Lang

Here is a video from an ex-gov detailing some intel about wind farms that I invite the thread participants to watch and/or consider?

KG L

Welcome to the Forums and thank you for subscribing to this thread. I did in fact see that video some while back as it was sent to me by one of my BILs. I was intrigued for two reasons. Firstly, it seemed low key and appeared to come from the ABC, who while far from perfect are not normally the scallywags some other media outlets are. Secondly, I had never heard of wind turbines being powered up by diesel engines.

So... I looked a little further. Smaller wind turbines are simply driven by the wind. End of story. Some of the very large wind turbines do have a small motor to "kick them away," but as soon as momentum has occurred, inertia keeps them rotating. These "starter" motors are usually electric and only operate for a very short time. An analogy would be the starter motor in your car.

If that video appeared on Mythbusters it would go firmly and unequivocally in to the "Busted" category.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

KG L

Welcome to the Forums and thank you for subscribing to this thread. I did in fact see that video some while back as it was sent to me by one of my BILs. I was intrigued for two reasons. Firstly, it seemed low key and appeared to come from the ABC, who while far from perfect are not normally the scallywags some other media outlets are. Secondly, I had never heard of wind turbines being powered up by diesel engines.

So... I looked a little further. Smaller wind turbines are simply driven by the wind. End of story. Some of the very large wind turbines do have a small motor to "kick them away," but as soon as momentum has occurred, inertia keeps them rotating. These "starter" motors are usually electric and only operate for a very short time. An analogy would be the starter motor in your car.

If that video appeared on Mythbusters it would go firmly and unequivocally in to the "Busted" category.

Regards
Paul

I don't recall diesel being mentioned in the video?

I also instantly went into the video with a closed mind as soon as I saw the "unvaccinated" T-shirt she was wearing. I don't actually care about what her vaccincation status is, but it instantly tells me she most likely has an anti-government agenda which may bias some of her opinons.


I guess something I should note, a lot of what she is saying doesn't actually seem to be daming wind turbines.... it seems to be more of a policy issue and mishandling of money (if its true).



also here's a youtube version for anyone struggling to download that direct file link (if you want a chuckle read the comments)

Originally Posted by havabeer69

I don't recall diesel being mentioned in the video?

HAB

Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't watch the video this time, but relied on my memory from some while ago: A mistake!!

Yes, Ms. Nicol pointed out that the initial power comes from Thermal power and not diesel. However, this is still only a brief "starter motor" moment. While she is correct in implying that the wind turbines are either on or off and that they are unable to move with the variation in demand, I don't think she grasped the way in which the thermal stations control frequency. They are the ones to control the frequency.

Before I explain that, the solar farms and the wind farms typically do not have the ability to generate according to the demand. They could have that ability, but they don't. It would of course be more expensive and that is why they have not built in that feature., although it is likely they will have to include that capability in the future. At the moment, if only wind and solar were available, it would be a disaster, but while ever there are other forms of thermal power (and hydro, particularly hydro) available it is not an issue.

Thermal stations are required as a condition of supplying power to the grid to have a frequency control capability. It is referred to as PFC (Primary Frequency Control). The extent of this capability varies from station to station, but AEMO's aim was for it to be around 15MW up or down. All the thermal generators have to comply with this and there are no extra monies for providing this facility, although that may change in the future: For the moment it is a condition of generating into the grid. The PFC is extremely fast acting and considerable work was put in by the thermal stations to be able to achieve this: Some can only partially comply, but do so within the limitations of their plant.

There are many reasons why supply can be interrupted and it was very glib in the video to point to SA. The big one there was the storms that went through. I don't think that was because of renewables. Nothing I can think of would have survived that.

Just as a point of interest, there is a 500MW interconnector from Vic into SA. SA maximum demand is not normally very much above 2000MW (talking very rounded figures here) and not for very long. The other day I saw their demand was a mere 600MW and at that instance was quite a bit lower than even Tasmania.

I don't know anything about the yearly money she claimed was given to the Wind farms. What Ms. Nicol could have mentioned, but didn't, was Solar companies enjoy a $40/MWhr subsidy. They keep generating until the spot price dips to -$40 and then they pull the plug. The thermal stations in that situation (-$40) back off to their minimum and still lose money. In fact, they begin to back off well before that: Probably more like +$40!!!

Regards
Paul

Wave Energy, Compressed Air, Thermal, Flow batteries.... It's all happening....Maybe.




How to solve our looming energy storage crisis? These companies are exploring high-tech solutions (msn.com)

Regards
Paul

A little bit more on how a wind turbine is started:

Wind Turbine Startup Process (spinningwing.com)

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

A little bit more on how a wind turbine is started:

Wind Turbine Startup Process (spinningwing.com)

Regards
Paul

Here’s a little bit on how they are stopped (The grin is for my segway because no one gets my sense of humour -not for them being stopped ). But you’ve got to get your approvals in whether it’s green energy or not…
403 Forbidden. <- not sure why the link looks like that but it still seems to work. It's 403 Forbidden <- darn that didn't work either

has this site been mentioned in the thread? I find it quite useful for keeping up with news

Thanks for both those links Mic.

I think it emphasises that in this burocratic world you have to get the paperwork right if you are going to avoid trouble down the track. Both the instances quoted, where the farms have to be pulled down, had ploughed on without approval. I am mindful that Adani started their mining project in QLD before all the approvals were in place. Hmmm.

Perhaps we should start a complete list of pros and cons of the various forms of electrical power as I have noted an increasing tendency in Australia for offshore wind farms to be knocked back on the grounds of visual pollution. Also while the median size of wind turbines is, say 7MW to 9MW, the largest so far is 15MW made by a Chinese company.

Nothing is perfect.

Regards
Paul

My wife and I were lucky enough to inspect the innards of a second or third generation wind turbine in Germany in 2014, this is a ground level wind turbine housing open for public viewing on one of the wind farms in northern Germany, this turbine was of the generation of the bigger types of wind turbines.

I understood from the technical literature and pictures on the boards inside, that the way the blades start spinning was to have the gearbox in neutral to allow free spinning and once the blades were spinning the gearbox was connected to the shaft and things got underway. I'm not sure if the clutch mechanism was a friction clutch, or a toothed dog clutch, whichever it is, it would have to be strong. Current wind turbines run direct I think, not totally sure, but I think that is how the latest do it.

The gearbox alone, on the ground level wind turbine housing open for inspection to all and sundry, is around the size of a mid-size to slightly bigger automobile, it really is impressively huge, as is almost everything in the rectangular box typical of those early units.

Mick.

Originally Posted by mic-d

Here’s a little bit on how they are stopped

In Oklahoma, they were forced to dismantle their windfarm because ... “developers failed to acquire a mining lease during or after construction, as well as after issuance of the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals’ decision holding that a mining lease was required.”

It seems that they failed to get a mining lease to mine the gravel that was used in constructing the wind farm. That made it an illegal construction and the Court rule demolition - after an earlier ruling that a Mining Lease was required was ignored. Crazy!

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Also while the median size of wind turbines is, say 7MW to 9MW, the largest so far is 15MW made by a Chinese company.

Originally Posted by Optimark

The gearbox alone, on the ground level wind turbine housing open for inspection to all and sundry, is around the size of a mid-size to slightly bigger automobile, it really is impressively huge, as is almost everything in the rectangular box typical of those early units.

Mick.

The largest cruise ship in the world is the Icon of the Seas at 250,000 gross tonnes, and it has diesel-electric propulsion - multi-fuel burning LNG, diesel or heavy fuel oil. It has 6 main engines: -

• 3 × Wärtsilä W14V46DFA - 16,030 kW
• 3 × Wärtsilä W12V46DF - 13,740 kW

The largest wind turbines, 15,000 kW, are now generating similar power to the engines in the largest ships in the world! That is a lot of grunt.