Thread: Future of the Australian Electricity Market

Luckily Dutton's pro-nookular arguments are likely to blow up in his face long before we ever build anything than can blow up more seriously. He clearly subscribes to the Trump model of ignoring any inconvenient facts that get in the way of his agenda. I'm glad to see that the CSIRO guys scampered into the net and volleyed his idiotic comments straight back at him.

Before seeing Dutton spouting his crap on TV, I used to think that builders were the only people who would tell a lie to your face even in the sure and certain knowledge that they'd be called out on it inside 10 minutes... "Yeah, mate, it's supposed to be like that. Nothing we can do about it now."

I was reading an update on the cost blowouts, delays, etc. with Snowy 2.0 a couple of days ago - and that's mainly just digging holes !! I don't rate our chances of being able to build a nuclear reactor without having "a few bits left over" and generally stuffing it up. Given our history with large civil projects, I'd say you could take any cost or lead time quoted and at least double it.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Where we are, in Tromsø (pronounced "Tromser," because of the "ø") we are about 350Km above the Arctic Circle.

Paul

I was also fortunate enough to visit Tromsø a few years ago... it is one of my favourite places. I was there in their summer so had endless hours of sunlight, as you do that far above the artic circle. It's on my bucket list to return to in winter when they won' get to see the sun above the horizon for six weeks.

Sunrise and sunset times in Tromso

I look forward to reading the thread on your Norway experience should you do that.

To those participating in this thread, may I once again thank you all for setting an example for how discussions with sometimes opposing points of view should be conducted. Although I rarely contribute (mainly because I usually can't do so meaningfully) I follow this thread closely. I may be none the wiser, but at least I'm better informed.

Originally Posted by NeilS

Paul

I was also fortunate enough to visit Tromsø a few years ago... it is one of my favourite places. I was there in their summer so had endless hours of sunlight, as you do that far above the artic circle. It's on my bucket list to return to in winter when they won' get to see the sun above the horizon for six weeks.

Sunrise and sunset times in Tromso

I look forward to reading the thread on your Norway experience should you do that.

Neil

I am planning a little information on Norway in a separate thread. Won't be back as soon as planned as the aircraft was diverted from Oslo to Trondheim because bad weather had closed the airport. Currently marking time at Trondheim waiting for Oslo to open!

ETA Brisbane some time this year.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by AlexS

To those participating in this thread, may I once again thank you all for setting an example for how discussions with sometimes opposing points of view should be conducted. Although I rarely contribute (mainly because I usually can't do so meaningfully) I follow this thread closely. I may be none the wiser, but at least I'm better informed.

Thanks Alex

I think it is down to the considerate and respectful cooperation of everybody.

I hope there are many like you, who, while not contributing frequently (your posts anywhere are always considered), enjoy and derive information from the many contributors.

Regards
Paul

Some time ago I posted on the small Hydro Station behind where my son is living in Norway. Well during our visit I saw the station in the flesh, although only from the outside.

It turned out that the station is owned by Simon's landlord, who lives next door, in partnership with a company that specialises in these "micro" units. Bjorn, the landlord, said that he had keys to the station and he could get us in. This was not surprising as he runs the station, from his phone. However, it does not operate during the winter as the dam, which is situated 140m above in the mountain behind freezes over and any precipitation becomes snow. There is not enough water during that time.

This is the lead up towards the turbine building:

P1090379.jpg


I had made the short trek and had a look around. The snow was over one meter deep around the building.

P1090382.jpg P1090386.jpg P1090388.jpgP1090389.jpg

Initially I had walked up there but when Bjorn went up, he travelled on this:

P1090402.jpg

Just a quad bike and for summer the standard wheels will go back on.

And this is the data. Commissioned in 2016, a 140m head, 1.6MW maximum capacity (For comparison, our electric feedwater pumps at Millmerran are about 4MW and at Bayswater the electric feedwater pumps are over 9MW) and a potential of 1400l/sec. The suction pipes from the dam are underground.


P1090381.jpg

When we went back, we still couldn't get access easily to the turbine house because what looks like snow, and is, becomes ice further down and not so easy to clear away. The door at the side was blocked. However, the second time I did manage to gain access to the front window to take a few pix of the Hydro Generator:


P1090475.jpg P1090476.jpg P1090477.jpg P1090478.jpgP1090479.jpg

The arrangement with Smalkraft is that they build the station (and the concrete walled dam) and Bjorn runs it. The monetary split is that for thirty years (this period may vary) the land owner gets 10% and the company receives 90%. After that ownership reverts 100% to the landowner. Of course, the question there revolves around what state the unit is in after this period of time.

These are the power lines (two different voltages) running nearby:

P1090397.jpg

This is the connection to the grid on the lower voltage. I did not get to find out what that was:

P1090398.jpg

One thing that confused me was this building coupled to a weir just downstream from the turbine house:

P1090399.jpgP1090400.jpg

It turned out to be nothing to do with the Hydro plant and was a fish spawning facility. It had fallen into disuse and not operated for twenty years.

Regards
Paul

Paul,
Very Interesting - keep posting.

BTW most of the attachments are not showing up. I think you may have linked them to your PC or phone and not actually uploaded them OR they are the wrong format ie not JPGs etc.

Originally Posted by BobL

Paul,
Very Interesting - keep posting.

BTW most of the attachments are not showing up. I think you may have linked them to your PC or phone and not actually uploaded them OR they are the wrong format ie not JPGs etc.

Thanks Bob.

I did see that, pulled out some more hair, which I can't afford to lose, and loaded pix again. hopefully all good now.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I had made the short trek and had a look around. The snow was over one meter deep around the building.

That building is fabulous. Most countries would have built the cheapest, ugliest building possible. Not Norway!

And even though we never get snow, I want a set of those tracks for my quad bike!!

I have mentioned so many times that every electricity source has at least one fatal flaw readers of this thread are probably rolling their eyes even as I type. So it is in Norway with their hydro. In winter water freezes and inflows to dams are restricted as the precipitation falls as snow. Consequently, there is still a balancing act to be performed.

The grid in Scandinavia is linked and also to Europe. When prices are low in Europe (Lower than in Norway) they buy in power so they can conserve their own resources. The adoption of electric power replacing traditional oil means their demand is also increasing far more than before. I saw a statistic that gave the per capita electricity consumption at twice that of the USA for example.

This link gives some insight to the way they manage the resources:

The power market - Norwegian Energy (energifaktanorge.no)

In particular there was this:

Norwegian Power Trading.png

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Warb

That building is fabulous. Most countries would have built the cheapest, ugliest building possible. Not Norway!

And even though we never get snow, I want a set of those tracks for my quad bike!!

Warb

I thought the tracked quad was pretty cool too. Although I didn't see it, Simon said the youngsters take those up the side of mountains. Pretty hairy stuff and not a little dangerous.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

In particular there was this:

Norwegian Power Trading.png

Very sensible, and exactly the approach what I'm expecting from Voldemort.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Very sensible, and exactly the approach what I'm expecting from Voldemort.

FF

Yes, it does slightly remove the gloss from the Norwegian electricity market and makes a small nonsense of their EV proliferation. Having said that, they are streets ahead of most other countries. As for Lord Voldemort, I think he would do well to swot up on some unfortunate truths before he spouts further nuclear philosophies. I note he has backed away from the SMRs so somebody must have mentioned, in passing, they are pie in the sky. He may be relying heavily on the great unwashed's lack of understanding of such matters. If he continues down the nuclear path, he will look foolish. An alternative policy is good policy, providing it is relatively sound.

Perhaps he does know the flaws of nuclear, but is trying gain an extended lease of life for fossil fuels by touting a, for the moment, non viable alternative.

Regards
Paul