Honey NOT so sweet

**BobL** · 22nd January 2018, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by ian

usually everything that might harm or kill you -- the lab's primary role was forensic toxicology

I doubt they would have been able to help Patterson with low level lead measurements especially involving isotopes, Patterson started his lead work back in the early 50's and by the 1960's he was the world leader in this game.

Before Patterson developed his accurate trace lead measurements, even the best labs in the world had analytical blanks for lead measurements of the order of 1ug which is hopeless when trying to measure nano or picogram amounts. Some labs claimed less that this but Patterson was quickly able to show them they were wrong. You need to remember that during the era of leaded petrol the average unwashed human hand was covered by around 100 ug of lead on its surface. This was though of an a natural background and most labs had no idea where it came from. Washing and scrubbing with distilled water reduced that to about 10 ug with the remainder being sort of half embedded in the skin and impossible to wash out. We know this by repeated washing of graduate student hands with dilute nitric acid. Acid washed plastic gloves, plastic lab coats, snoods and overshoes became the fashion statements of day in those labs.

Patterson had to start from scratch with trace lead work. He tested every type of lab ware and material used to make labs and found PVC fume hoods and lab bench tops, and conventional lab glassware contained high levels of lead. HDPE lab ware contained less lead but its use was limited as it could not withstand heating so PTFE & FEP was used (later it was found that HDPE could withstand some washing and it was widely used) All lab ware had to be boiled for days in concentrated nitric and hydrochloric acids and stored for weeks in acidified tubs before it could be used. But before that was possible the cleaning water and commercial grade acids had to be purified because they were all contaminated. The containers to distill and hold the purified acids and lab ware had to be cleaned and the labs rebuilt to remove all PVC and metals like Zn that might contain any lead. The labs might look similar to conventional toxicology labs but when the surface was scratched they were quite different. When we built our large ultra-clean labs in 2000 the builder had consultants visit us with experience in toxicology labs and hospital theatre developments and they could not understand why we had a "no metal, no - PVC" requirements. In the end we hired our own consultant from the US who was an expert in ultra trace metal lab design and he was able to set us up to our specifications. Our benches were made of fibreglass and covered in HDPE sheet and PE film.

After a long effort Patterson got the analytical blanks down to the 50ng level and this enabled him to determine the amounts of lead prehistoric man had in his bones.
This also enabled Patterson to make an accurate measurement of lead in modern polar ice provided he used cubic metres of it but he could still not measure the lead in older ice until
he and his students pushed the analytical blanks down to ng and eventually 10's of pg levels. Even then they still had to use up many Litres of ice.

Isotopic measurements of lead added extra complexity in that in the 1960s the ionisation efficiency of lead was so poor at least 10 ug of lead was needed to see a lead signal in a mass spectrometer let alone measure its isotopic composition. It was not until the 1960's that special ionisation techniques were developed by nuclear scientists to get a signal from less than a ug. Since then special plasma mass spectrometers and ionisation enhancers are now used to measure the isotopic composition of as little as 1pg of sample

It took years of excruciating chicken and egg improvements and unheard of levels of cleaning to get to the sub pg level analytical blanks needed to measure lead in ancient polar ice.
In our lab we used the following protocol and all (apart from step 4) took place in a dedicated ultraclean 6 x 6 m lab that was 10 times cleaner than a conventional operating theatre.
1 water was conventionally and Reverse Osmosis filtered, then doubly deionised water, followed by multiple distillations in special quartz sub-boiling stills.
2 HCl was made using from electronic grade HCl gas bubbled into pure water
3 HNO3 was doubly distilled in a quartz sub-boiling still followed by double distillation using a teflon still.
4 FEP lab ware was soaked in ethanol, regular AR grade Conc HCl, Concentrated aqua regia, Conc HCl, then boiled in 5/10L quartz glass beakers containing dilute HCl and HNO3 for about a week
5 then boiled in teflon baths of pure water for a few days, and then soaked in HDPE baths in dilute HNO3 for a minimum of 6 months with the solution changed ever month.
6 we used a lot of HDPE lab ware and that was soaked for months alternately in water and dilute nitric acid.

At one stage we had something like $25k worth of lab ware just in the cleaning cycle. These days a 1m long segment of ice core can be stood upright inside a freezer cabinet with the bottom end poking through onto the top of a specially made Silicon Carbide hot plate and melted at a few mm per minute and the water drained off direct into the mass spectrometer and up to about 40 trace metals measured simultaneously in the melted water.

**MAPLEMAN** · 4th February 2018, 01:00 PM

Over 20% of children (aged 5 years and younger),residing in the Broken Hill region have lead blood levels at 10 ug/dl or greater
Evidence based science affirms damage and toxicity to occur within the body when levels are demonstrated at 5ug/dl
And certain State health departments would conveniently argue that this is untrue.
Kids in Mt Isa have had elevated blood pb levels recorded at over 30ug/dl
As has been reported in this thread,bees have this marvellous ability to filter honey,however continue to accumulate lead in their bodies,not unlike humans.
Further studies are to be undertaken to ascertain whether or not elevated pb levels are detrimental to the well being of the bees concerned
I suspect that in time it will be found that there will be collateral damage for the poor bee!
Where do we go once this mighty planet is totally fouled with toxins and filth...Moon...Mars...Mercury???
When our alien friends ask 'what happened to you guys?'...we can say 'jobs and growth'!!!
The BIGGEST problem humanity faces now and well into the future is our insatiable need to pollute the air/water, upon which our very existence relies on!
We are creating legacies that will define the health and safety of future generations...and not for the better!
Time for 'head out of the freckle' and encourage a sustainable,healthy future for everyone on this earth...changes MUST be made soon...MM

**BobL** · 4th February 2018, 01:23 PM

From the ABC landline story on Honey/Bees.
A Taste Of Landline - Series 3 Ep 13 : ABC iview

Couple of points that might be of interest.
Veroa mite free Queens are being bred on Rottnest island for the Australian and international market.
There have never been many vehicles on Rottnest so it should be relatively lead free.
Marri and Jarrah honey has been found to have 20% more abiotic properties than NZ Manuka honey.
It sells for up to $100/kg in china.

**MAPLEMAN** · 4th February 2018, 01:49 PM

Really enjoyed watching that Bob...quite informative!
Interesting point that 2-3 times the amount of Manuka honey sold than produced across the Tasman
Highlights the importance of maintaining accountability and credibility within the industry so that folk aren't 'ripped off' so to speak
The notion of chain of custody is a good one...know exactly how,where and when it was produced along with a bill of health is a positive for consumers...a great advantage for exporters too.
Thank you for sharing...MM

**BobL** · 4th February 2018, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

Really enjoyed watching that Bob...quite informative!
Interesting point that 2-3 times the amount of Manuka honey sold than produced across the Tasman

Reminds me of estimates made of the number of "wood of the cross" relics are estimated to add up to about 100X the amount of wood in a real cross.

Highlights the importance of maintaining accountability and credibility within the industry so that folk aren't 'ripped off' so to speak
The notion of chain of custody is a good one...know exactly how,where and when it was produced along with a bill of health is a positive for consumers...a great advantage for exporters too.
Thank you for sharing...MM

Chain of custody quality control is performed using trace element concentrations and selected isotopes.
If the product becomes valuable enough the crooks may try to dope the good honey with small amounts of race elements and isotopes but it is really hard to pull off.

My godfather in the south West of WA was growing potatoes on land that was uncontaminated by pesticides that had been used in the past by tobacco growers in surrounding farms. When the ex-tobacco farms were used to grow potatoes, some paddocks produced spuds with too high an average pesticide content and could not be sold. My Godfather was approached several times by neighbouring farmer to purchase godfather's spuds so they could mix them in with their contaminated spuds and make a sale

. Its interesting that my godfather thought "organic farming" was a crock even though he used many organic practices dating as far back as the 1940's when he and his brothers first cleared their farm.

BTW many of these ex-tobbaco paddocks are now used for grapes. I often wonder what the pesticide content of the wine is like.

**onetrack** · 4th February 2018, 03:22 PM

Good last point there, BobL. I never knew until recently, that both DDT and Dieldrin residues were cumulative, as with Mercury.

The tobacco chemicals issue makes for sobering reading.

5.8 Agricultural chemicals, flavourings and other additives

**Bendigo Bob** · 4th February 2018, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by onetrack

Good last point there, BobL. I never knew until recently, that both DDT and Dieldrin residues were cumulative, as with Mercury.

The tobacco chemicals issue makes for sobering reading.

5.8 Agricultural chemicals, flavourings and other additives

In the 70's I worked on a tobacco farm in Mareeba NQ. Man, they loved the chemicals there!

And I remember so well, Nunzio, the farmer I worked for, had no fear of them. He'd pour that 20l container of suckering fluid, or whatever other poison, into his sprayer reservoir behind the tractor, then reach down and give it all a big swoosh with his arm, and just shake it off. Wonder what happened to him?

**FenceFurniture** · 4th February 2018, 03:41 PM

I suspect that the tobacco industry is missing a golden marketing opportunity:
"Only smoke healthier organically grown tobacco - guaranteed to have 30-40% less chance of giving you less varieties of cancer"

**rob streeper** · 4th February 2018, 04:05 PM

Speaking of tobacco, I've read that there are some former tobacco lands that are unusable because of the application of arsenic containing pesticides up through the mid 20th century before the advent of the chlorinated organics. I think that this is mentioned in Silent Spring.

**onetrack** · 4th February 2018, 08:59 PM

He'd pour that 20l container of suckering fluid, or whatever other poison, into his sprayer reservoir behind the tractor, then reach down and give it all a big swoosh with his arm, and just shake it off. Wonder what happened to him?

Bendigo Bob - my workshop neighbour is a truckie, hauling trailers around for Coles and Woolies.
He's in his early 60's. He's always taking cruises and going on long jaunts, and I asked him why, chiacking him about, "having too much money".
He said, "My old man had a hardware store when I was young. One brother cut up the asbestos sheeting without any masks, another brother mixed up all the spray chemicals with his hands, saying, 'this stuff is safe as houses! - you could drink it!'. Another brother mixed all the lead-based paints! All three brothers died of various cancers in their 50's! - and the old man died young from cancer, too! I'm getting in as many holidays as I can while I still can, 'cos I reckon I'm going to go the same way!"
He's absolutely crapping himself about dying early. But the thing is, all the toxins he talks about, were well-known in the 1960's, anyway, so I think his family have been victims of their own carelessness.

**rob streeper** · 6th February 2018, 12:20 AM

Seems orchards are bad for arsenic contamination. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1551991/

**MAPLEMAN** · 6th February 2018, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by rob streeper

Seems orchards are bad for arsenic contamination. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1551991/

Another informative read...MM

**rob streeper** · 7th February 2018, 12:14 AM

More on arsenic: The history of arsenical pesticides and health risks related to the use of Agent Blue

Seems that depending on where you're talking about arsenic is more or less prevalent.

Also, an interesting but very disturbing observation. I searched PubMed and found this: Pesticide content in drinking water samples collected from orchard areas in central Poland.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17655187

When I clicked on the Full Text link I got 'page not found'. Strona nie istnieje

When I searched the archive for the volume of the journal in which above article was printed I found this: Annals of Agricultural and Environmental Medicine - Issue 1/2007 vol. 14

Annals of Agricultural and Environmental Medicine 2007 (1)14 TOC.JPG

The paper I'm looking for isn't there and only three paper titles are listed. Note the gaps in the progression of the page numbers of the articles, starting with 45-49, then jumping to 57-61 and jumping again to 169-72. Seems there's a LOT missing. Is somebody editing the scientific record? I'll ask.

**BobL** · 17th February 2018, 10:09 AM

Single pass desalinator and water purifier filter made by turning waste oil into a graphene filter membrane.

https://www.sciencealert.com/graphen...kable-seawater

A young bloke I taught at uni, where he was an outstanding student, was on the invention team.

Now watch how the patent will be bought up and the stuff will be made overseas.

**MAPLEMAN** · 17th February 2018, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by BobL

Single pass desalinator and water purifier filter made by turning waste oil into a graphene filter membrane.

https://www.sciencealert.com/graphen...kable-seawater

A young bloke I taught at uni, where he was an outstanding student, was on the invention team.

Now watch how the patent will be bought up and the stuff will be made overseas.

Very exciting stuff Bob...and home grown so to speak.A great example of science working for the betterment of human kind.Well done to the research team involved...MM

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