Thread: It should be said

Thanks for that, it reminds us all what Anzac Day is really about, not the jingoistic celebration that some make it.

Can someone with better knowledge and authority (in the sense of background to their knowledge) than me advise what the correct protocol is now regarding 'hand over heart'. It used to be an American thing, but Australians in civvies simply stood at attention. This was also the military way of saluting if in civvies or uncovered, i.e. not wearing a hat, cap, beret or other headdress. (I know, some RSMs would say that was 'naked on parade'.) Nowadays, it seems everyone puts their hand over their heart during the Last Post and on other occasions when the military salute.
Thanks.

The average Australian's knowledge of what any war (let alone the first world war, and especially the Gallipoli Campaign) is about and the resulting after effects is quite woeful.

The standard reason given for the Brits going to the Dardanelles in WWI was that the Western front had reached a stalemate so a route through the Dardanelles to help supply Russia with war materiel would enable the Russian to escalate the eastern front and that would take pressure off the Western Front is only a minor reason.

However, the Brits and the French knew that Russia had played a very significant part in starting WWI with the ultimate intention of expanding their own territory big time in eastern Europe. The Brits and the French were also worried that if Russia beat the Ottomans they would control many of the oil fields in the middle east. To prevent Russia having undue influence after the war Churchill though that if the Brits and French beat the Turks before the Russians they would control that part of the world and the oil. In other words it was about oil and money.

In the end the Brits (including many Aussie diggers) knocked off the Ottomans through Palestine and the Sinai campaigns and it was Brit and French generals and diplomats who carved up the middle east according to their big business buddies immediate interests. This created the modern states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq etc under the rule of brutal and scurrilous war lords controlled by the Allies. These rulers and their ongoing henchmen and the boundaries are entirely artificial and are said to be a major contributor to the instability of the middle east for the last 100 years.

None of this of course detracts from the heroic efforts of our lads at Gallipoli or elsewhere especially on the Western Front.

Also Not many Aussies know the following.

The country with the highest death per captia basis was Ireland - then still a part of the UK.
Almost as many (110,000) Allied soldiers were evacuated due to illness, as were wounded.
The proportion of disease casualties to battle casualties was considerably higher in the Gallipoli Campaign than it was on the campaigns of the Western Front
The hospitals facilities provided were completely inadequate and the medical staff had to work under atrocious conditions.
About seven time more Aussies died on the western front than at Gallipoli.

Although this is gradually improving I personally don't think we give enough attention or recognition to what happened on the Western front, or even smaller but in some ways much more significant actions like the Battle for Kokoda.

I have been to both Gallipoli and various battle areas of the WWI (and WWII) Western Front and while they are all very moving places the one that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up the longest was Veillers-Bretonneux. Many of the Aussie soldiers they had been at war for some 4 years (no leave back home), as the Brit conscripts were retreating in a complete shambles under a German onslaught, Aussie officers rounded up bunches of retreating Brits and got them reorganised, held their ground against gas attacks that took out 1000's, and eventually retook the Village. This seemingly small action had a major bearing on the progress of the war, The recent book by Peter Fitzsimmons (Victory and Villers-Bretinneux) is one of the best Aussie perspective books on WW1 - highly recommended

An exceptionally interesting post.

Here in the US we have similar day of remembrance, November 11. Originally called Armistice Day but now known as Veteran's Day. As a child I remember Armistice Day as a solemn remembrance. I can vaguely remember placing flags on certain graves and being scolded for walking across a grave. Armistice Day was a subdued day, most stores were closed and there was very little commercialization of the day.

As we have evolved into Veteran's Day we have also evolved into, 'No School' or 'A Work Holiday'. It seems that the real meaning of Armistice Day has been lost. These days Veteran's Day is just another day to generate sales. On November 11, some restaurants will give anyone who is in uniform or claims to be a veteran a free meal. Some restaurants require a BOGO deal while others 'Just claim to be a veteran and your meal is on us.'

SWMBO and I usually attend a NASCAR race around Veteran's Day and during the pre-race activities a minute of silence is observed for our Veterans. Woefully inadequate if you ask me but better than nothing.

If you encounter a service member in uniform, thank them for their service as it will mean a lot.

Winston Churchill had a varied career during the First World War. At the outbreak of war in 1914, Churchill was serving as First Lord of the Admiralty. In 1915 he helped orchestrate the disastrous Dardanelles naval campaign and was also involved in the planning of the military landings on Gallipoli, both of which saw large losses.


Following the failure of these campaigns, Churchill was demoted and resigned from government. He became an officer in the Army and served on the Western Front until early 1916.
In 1917, under Prime Minister David Lloyd George’s coalition government, Churchill was appointed Minister of Munitions, a position he held until January 1919.


In 1919, shortly after the end of the war, he was appointed Secretary of State for Air and War. In this role he attended peace talks in Paris in 1919. He was not involved in the peace process itself but took part in discussions about the shape of the post-war world. He held this position until 1921.

Showed my youngest son this thread. He is a very keen war historian and could gladly live in the USA. His comic book hero is Captain America . He actually got married at a Las Vegas Chapel by an Elvis impersonator. Here is his response:

"Just had a read through, some pretty interesting stuff in there especially the post from the American contributor. A few years ago ( he was on his honeymoon at the time) we were in Washington DC during the Veteran's Day long weekend and many vets displayed signs of their service (medals, patches, hats, motorcycle jackets etc) and people would always stop them and thank them for their service, I thought it was a really nice gesture."

I have been watching Designated Survivor on Netflix, about some low level politician being made President after the whole of Congress was blown up during a State of the Nation address by the President. " Thank you for your Service" was quite a common expression in this show, given to police, FBI, firemen etc.

Originally Posted by Dengue

Showed my youngest son this thread. He is a very keen war historian and could gladly live in the USA. His comic book hero is Captain America . He actually got married at a Las Vegas Chapel by an Elvis impersonator.

On April 22, my youngest son (Now 45) was married in Las Vegas by the real Elvis.

Elvis is alive and well. During the summer (too hot in Las Vegas) Elvis runs a fishing camp on the upper peninsular of Michigan. Then Elvis told me that he was leaving Las Vegas in a few weeks to run his fishing camp.

">> 8. Please don't try to draw comparisons between civilians and war veterans, I've never seen a civilian perform acts of heroism whilst under fire to protect their fellow service personnel, flag and Country."

What about PNG's fuzzy wuzzy angels? These were PNG civilians who risked their (and their family's) lives to aid and protect Australian soldiers during the Japanese occupation of PNG. What about civilians during other conflicts who risked their lives to assist Australian and allied troops....eg escaped POW's, pilots who'd parachuted behind enemy lines after being shot down?

Originally Posted by AlexS

Can someone with better knowledge and authority (in the sense of background to their knowledge) than me advise what the correct protocol is now regarding 'hand over heart'. It used to be an American thing, but Australians in civvies simply stood at attention. This was also the military way of saluting if in civvies or uncovered, i.e. not wearing a hat, cap, beret or other headdress. (I know, some RSMs would say that was 'naked on parade'.) Nowadays, it seems everyone puts their hand over their heart during the Last Post and on other occasions when the military salute.
Thanks.

I do not speak with any authority of the origins of it Alex, but I do remember that we were taught to put our hand over our heart when the national anthem is played, way back when I started school in 1965. I guess it has been practiced in Australia for all of my life and maybe a lot longer, so much so that I never even gave a thought to it not being an Australian thing. I would have thought it came from the British if anywhere but I am not sure.

Cheers

Doug

Thanks Doug. Thinking about it, I vaguely recall reading about it being started when a British RSM told his troops to put their hands over their medals to honour another unit as they marched past. Not sure of the details, nor even if it's true.

Originally Posted by doug3030

I do not speak with any authority of the origins of it Alex, but I do remember that we were taught to put our hand over our heart when the national anthem is played, way back when I started school in 1965. I guess it has been practiced in Australia for all of my life and maybe a lot longer, so much so that I never even gave a thought to it not being an Australian thing. I would have thought it came from the British if anywhere but I am not sure.

Cheers

Doug

Was that a Victorian thing Doug? I started school in 56 and was never taught that. And I've never seen it in an Australian setting. First time I saw it was when the American union team played a World Cup game against the Pumas at Gosford a few years back. They had a flag pole on the ground and as their flag was raised they all turned in unison to the flag with their hand on their heart. It looked odd to me.

TT

Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon

Was that a Victorian thing Doug?

I went to school in Queensland, TT.

I never intended to go south of the "Tropic of Brisbane" again after I got out of the Army 20 years ago, but things do not always go as planned.

Every day we started school with a parade. When they raised the flag and played the National Anthem (God Save the Queen) we all had to stand to attention with our hands on our hearts. Boys who were wearing hats had to remove their hats and hold it in the right hand over the heart too. I went to two different Primary Schools and it was the same at both.

Cheers

Doug

Originally Posted by doug3030

I went to school in Queensland, TT.

I never intended to go south of the "Tropic of Brisbane" again after I got out of the Army 20 years ago, but things do not always go as planned.

Every day we started school with a parade. When they raised the flag and played the National Anthem (God Save the Queen) we all had to stand to attention with our hands on our hearts. Boys who were wearing hats had to remove their hats and hold it in the right hand over the heart too. I went to two different Primary Schools and it was the same at both.

Cheers

Doug

That is interesting. We did similar. My primary school was small with 4th 5th & 6 th class in the one room. Our headmaster was a vet and we did the daily national anthem, Lord's Prayer then marched in to class to the tune of Scotland the Brave. No saluting or hand on heart. Different strokes for different areas.


TT

Just Finished another book about WW1, this one is a biography of Phillip Schuller a reporter, soldier and author of "Australia in Arms"

Sculler's life is an short but very interesting one in its own right but what the book highlights is the extent to which "fake news" permeated by dodgy WW1 reporters tried to influence goings on under the guise of "heroism".

The chief Australian involved was Keith Murdoch (Rupert Murdoch's father) who came out of the Official Gallipoli military enquiry with egg all over his face but fortunately for Murdoch the report was suppressed.
What is even more disgraceful are the ongoing efforts by the Murdoch family to continue to portray Keith as a hero including in the 2015 TV Show "Deadline Gallipoli" which is riddled with major factual errors.

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