Thread: NBN decisions

Ive just been through the same thing, as Telstra was cutting off our 115 Mbs Cable Internet and forcing us onto NBN here in Brisbane CBD.

I am lucky that TPG have there own FTTB network in our apartment, so i didn't technically have to go into the NBN, i changed over today from Telstra as Telstra were being annoying and calling twice a week on my unlisted number, even though you legally have 18 months from when NBN is installed in your area to change over.

In theory the providers use that same fibre, so that means that they should all be good, "But" providers buy capacity, of course the big three, Telstra, Optus and TPG have more bandwidth, inbound and outbound than the smaller providers.

There are also different tiered speeds and are priced higher, the faster you need/want.

Tier 1 (12mbs/1mbs)
Tier 2 (25mbs/5 Mbs)
Tier 3 (50mbs/10mbs)
Tier 4 (50mbs/20mbs)
Tier 5 (100mbs/40mbs)

Although I'm not sure if this applies to Wireless, this may be different.

Don't sign up for anything you don't need, and some companies offer a no contract plan, so if the service is crap, its easy to go elsewhere.

As for providers, You always pay more for Telstra, but they tend to have better service than cheaper providers, its not great, and its still a pain, but they normally get to the bottom of it.

i would personally look at the big four providers first and your current provider last and see what their offerings are, contract length, costs for phone calls and how much data is included in the plan.

If you do speak to them, don't let them talk you into anything, get the quote/ref number and get back to them after you have done your homework.

We have been on NBN fixed wireless for a few years now and are happy with our provider, Aussie Broadband. Their tech support is based in Oz and is excellent.

When it first came out there was only 25/5, but in the last year or so they also offered 50/10.
They offered a trial of the faster 50/10 but for our use (no Netflix or other streaming) we couldn't see the difference so stayed with 25/5.

Aussie Broadband are the only ISP we have been with since switching to NBN so can't offer a comparison.

We are on a relatively low data plan, 20Gb/mth, with VOIP with all local and STD calls free, international calls at a very low rate.

We recently had our granddaughters over for Easter and the made short work of our 20gb watching Netflix, but a 250gb datapack quickly solved that problem. BTW they had no complaints about the streaming on our 25/5 so must be OK even for Netflix.

Originally Posted by Bob38S

We have fixed wireless available, don't particularly want to shift from ADSL2 but from my limited understanding we don't have a choice and must get NBN or be cut off entirely, internet as well as fixed line phone.

In areas where NBN is provided via fixed wireless the copper lines will be remaining in use for the foreseeable future. In those areas there is no need to change over although some service providers may try to convince you that there is.

The reason is that the telephone (not the internet) is an essential service and if the power goes down then your wireless internet protocol phone cannot be used. It is not suitable for people with medical devices or safety pendants etc that connect to a base using the fixed phone line as continuous service cannot be guaranteed to a satisfactory standard.

You can continue to use your existing copper services in Wireless NBN areas for this reason.

That is unless things have changed in the last few months.

Cheers

Doug

Wouldn't that same argument apply to all areas covered by NBN Doug?

It is my understanding that the copper wires are no longer working in our area, I certainly know that in large parts of Tassie (eg Deloraine etc) the copper wires have been decommissioned.

Anyway, once you get Fixed Wireless NBN why would you continue to pay about $30/mth copper line rental to Telstra? 99% of all our phone calls are made on our mobile anyway.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Wouldn't that same argument apply to all areas covered by NBN Doug?

Not quite Fred, but I may have oversimplified my answer so that it was short enough for people to want to read.

The whole thing becomes a real mish-mash of technical considerations and legal requirements involving customer service guarantees and of course throw in a large measure of lack of common sense.

Fixed wireless is typically in use in areas where the properties are large and the population rather sparse, places where it would be uneconomical to run long lengths of fibre for so few subscribers.

On the copper network the phone line often remains useable even if the power is out, but on the fibre network your phone runs over the internet using a modem that is plugged in to your power supply, so now power no phone. Certain customers (known as Medical Priority Assistance) who need a phone line that still works in a blackout get given a battery backup system that will power their modem for maybe 24 hours. On Fixed Wireless battery backups are not practical for some reason, so no power means no phone.

There are laws governing getting Medical Priority Assistance customers connected back up in the event of a network failure. Apparently NBN decided that it cannot meet the requirements on the fixed wireless network so Medical Priority Assistance customers remain on the copper network for their phone but can take up broedband on the NBN. Similar circumstances pply if a customer has a monitored security alarm system

Originally Posted by Big Shed

It is my understanding that the copper wires are no longer working in our area, I certainly know that in large parts of Tassie (eg Deloraine etc) the copper wires have been decommissioned.

I believe that most of Tassie is on fibre. Fixed wireless would be unsuitable due to the system being line-of-sight and tassie being quite mountainous, resulting in a lot of dead spots.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Anyway, once you get Fixed Wireless NBN why would you continue to pay about $30/mth copper line rental to Telstra? 99% of all our phone calls are made on our mobile anyway.

As I said, medical and security monitoring systems generally run through the copper/fixed network, not over the mobile phone.

Also remember what I said about common sense above.

Cheers

Doug

Many thanks for the prompt replies, just the sort of info I was looking for.

At least, so far, no one has identified the "child of dodgy brothers" as being a company to avoid.

My parents have been with TPG since it rolled out into their area. They are on the basic plan, which suits them. No data caps, but they aren't particularly heavy users. But they do use iview and youtube a lot now they don't have to worry about how much they use. It was relatively straight forward for me to replace the supplied wifi router with something that actually works, can now get full 12Mbs throughout the house.

Recently we have moved from an ADSL(original) internet connection to a fixed wireless connection. We have signed up with Telstra as other internet providers kept mentioning that we were not in an NBN area? I think they might have been lazy as what they needed to do was test the signal from the roof before installing the dish.

So far and I am talking about less then two weeks, it seems ok.

One of the problems with fixed wireless connections is that you are sharing the same frequency with all the customers in your vicinity. As the number of uptake increases, the traffic increases and the performance of the network will deteriorate quite dramatically during peak hours. On the other hand, ADSL or any of the FTTx technolgies. You have a dedicated line to the exchange and you're not sharing it with anyone else. At the moment, most customers are happy with fixed wireless because there are not many of them within their vicinity and their usages are generally relatively light. As people change their habits, which is what NBN was aimed for, then fixed wireless is inherently inadequate to cope.

Bob38s, I would hold onto my ADSL as long as I could and if they are not taking the copper away, then is ADSL going to stay as well?

We stay at our son's place in Adelaide regularly, he has ADSL2 and during the day the speed is quite good (haven't done any speed tests). But later in the afternoon when the kids are home from school it is a different story and by the time the parents are home as well it can be woeful.

We used to have plain old ADSL here, which was a great improvement over our previous dial up, when we changed from ADSL to Fixed Wireless it was an enormous improvement and we would never voluntarily have gone back to ADSL.

You may have a dedicated line to the exchange, but you still share the feed in to the exchange with however many people are online and the service decreases with the increase in users.

NBN says the users per Fixed Wireless tower are limited (forget the number). Since we connected to our tower (line of sight) 2 more towers have been put up in our general area so maybe what NBN says is correct.
Anyway we have not seen a noticeable decrease in speed since we first started using it and we were amongst the first to adopt Fixed Wireless in our area.

I love these antidotal evidences.

A lot of ADSL got congested overnight when Netflix came to Australia. You know how telcos fixed this problem. They added more multiplexers at the exchange to carry the traffic. No change was made to the ADSL access network. Reason: The ADSL was not the bottle neck, the multiplexers were. This also means that ADSL is more than adequate to carry the increased traffic load.

The main driver for NBN was that ADSL is a limiting technology in that you can't get significantly higher (order of magnitude) bandwidth on a copper line as you can with a fibre. Unfortunately, the comparison between wireless access and fibre to the xx is like comparing co-axial cables to ADSL. Both adding layers of pronounced fluctuation of traffic that would affect end user experience. You may get higher average bandwidth with wireless compared to the legacy, but it comes with a well known congestion probability that is waiting to happen. We are replacing one limiting technology with another.

When you move to fixed wireless, there are still multiplexers at the exchange. If the no. of multiplexers are insufficient, the same problem will also occur as in the case of the ADSL.

But you also have another layer of aggregation in the wireless access network, and since you will be sharing it with much fewer number of people at this level, the combined traffic will have more pronounced peak and trough than at the exchange (which you will also have by the way). You will always have a higher chance of congestion and more pronounced than a fixed wired access network.

Of course things are rosy now because you effectively have two access networks in the area: the legacy copper and the new fixed wireless for the same number of subscribers. But wait until all the Netflixers churn over to the new network and tell me you are still singing its praises

If you want to term our actual experience aecdotal, then be my guest.

I can only relate what we actually experience. This area never had, and now never will have, ADSL2 only plain old ADSL. Our exchange was never set up for ADSL2, not even (especially not?) by Telstra.

I don't know anyone in this area that still uses ADSL via the copper wires, why would they, apart from anything else it is cheaper to use the Fixed Wireless as you don't have to pay $30 a month for copper line rental, only a $10/month charge for VOIP with free calls and very cheap international calls. Even my internet monthly charge is cheaper than I was paying for basic ADSL access and with more data allowance.

You now even acknowledge that ADSL is subject to the same bottlenecks that Fixed Wireless is, which is different to what you said in your first post.

Anyway, you criticise NBN Fixed Wireless all you want, my "anecdotal" experience is that it is vastly superior to ADSL. So what is your "actual experience" of Fixed Wireless?

I think a lot of people like to criticise anything to do with the NBN because it suits their political bias.

This is our current ADSL2 speed test result, granted, at almost 11.00pm but it doesn't really vary that much.

So what is your "actual experience" of Fixed Wireless?

I only spent 15 years working for a global telco supplier designing and building networks and systems in Australia and through out Asia. and I only know a little bit about wireless access network as well as other types of customer access networks, including advantages and disadvantages of each technology, subscribers complaints and operators feedback.

I think a lot of people like to criticize anything to do with the NBN because it suits their political bias.

I no longer work for any supplier or operator. I have no financial interests in any telecom technologies. I have no political barrel to push. My interest is just about providing some info to Bob.

If you want to term our actual experience anecdotal, then be my guest.

I can only relate what we actually experience. This area never had, and now never will have, ADSL2 only plain old ADSL. Our exchange was never set up for ADSL2, not even (especially not?) by Telstra.

Anecdotal evidence relies on personal testimony. But what do I know? I only know it is important to note the events or drivers which have led to those anecdotes. In this instance, the copper local loop to the subscribers house was the reason that you could not get ADSL2. I suspect the exchange was never a problem. To get an exchange ready, it is an installation of new multiplexers or DSLAMs. However, any problem with the copper local loop can't be easily fixed. Your problem, which is quite common, was probably caused by either subscribers being too far away from the exchange, and/or the condition of the copper network is poor, and/or the work around put in place to get POTS to such far away subscribers addresses actually contributed to the deterioration of the ADSL signals. Since ADSL2 has much more stringent requirements in order to push data at a higher rate. ADSL2 is not therefore available at the subscriber's address, and subscriber's poor experience with ADSL is also probably because of the same set of events.

Knowing all this is important because it allows people to evaluate if described set of circumstances applies to them. The OP probably has experienced things quite differently given that ADSL2 is available to him and he is quite happy with its performance.

You now even acknowledge that ADSL is subject to the same bottlenecks that Fixed Wireless is, which is different to what you said in your first post.

This is an incorrect interpretation of the facts that I presented. There are many customer access network options, one of which is the wireless access network or what is commercially known as fixed wireless (so customer don't get confused with the mobile network which is an entirely different network infrastructure). The other is fibre to the curb/node/house/building. The traditional copper local loop that provides the POTS (plain old telephone service) is also a customer access network. ADSL of both versions 1 & 2 are overlays of the copper local loop, providing extra functionality and digital bandwidth over the same legacy copper access infrastructure. Each subscriber's line is physically linked to a port in the multiplexer at the exchange. It is not possible to have a bottleneck in an ADSL access loop from other subscribers because the traffic is carried on a dedicated pair of wires all the way to the exchange. On the other hand, a wireless access infrastructure is akin to a passenger train. Many people travel on the same train and a train will get congested if too many are on the train at the same time. When NBN co decides its too costly to roll out FTTx in a particular area, the wireless access infrastructure which is much cheaper, will be deployed instead.

At the end of any of the access network, it terminates at the exchange. The multiplexers take the traffic off the access links which might either be a single ADSL line, one FTTx link or a one wireless access carrier and put them all on a bigger train. This bigger train forms one element of the backbone of the telecom network. It is this network that I indicated congestion is possible for the same reason.

Bob38s, I would hold onto my ADSL as long as I could and if they are not taking the copper away.

if Bob is happy with ADSL2 and with the inherit problem in wireless access architecture, that seems a reasonable suggestion.

So I will now leave it to the experts with loads of actual experience.