Thread: Dangerous Kapex

My point is about the duty of care that a manufacturer has to ensure complete safe operation of its product. Sure, most Kapex units will not have this problem, but that's not the point. In the motor vehicle industry, we see world wide recalls based upon very few incidents simply to ensure the problem will not cause harm to anyone else.

I certainly hope Festool do the right thing and proactively fix all units which are prone to this problem. It is clearly a common issue and simply waiting for a fault to develop before they fix each unit is not what I would call adequate duty of care.

I note that product recalls for faults are largely voluntary in Australia except where there is a safety issue, most state governments have the power to compel manufacturers to fix all affected units.

Originally Posted by TP1

My point is about the duty of care that a manufacturer has to ensure complete safe operation of its product. Sure, most Kapex units will not have this problem, but that's not the point. In the motor vehicle industry, we see world wide recalls based upon very few incidents simply to ensure the problem will not cause harm to anyone else.

I certainly hope Festool do the right thing and proactively fix all units which are prone to this problem. It is clearly a common issue and simply waiting for a fault to develop before they fix each unit is not what I would call adequate duty of care.

I note that product recalls for faults are largely voluntary in Australia except where there is a safety issue, most state governments have the power to compel manufacturers to fix all affected units.

I'd like to add a few things to this discussion. The car industry doesn't recall vehicles because of a small number of incidents (generally speaking) and they certainly don't do it for for the good of the customers. They look at the total number of incidents and try to project the possible number that might occur in the future. Then they look at the cost of proactively fixing the problem (recall) and the cost of doing nothing and dealing with the consequences as they occur. They will always choose the option that costs less. (slightly off topic know)

On a smaller scale, like that of Festool tools, this process is likely a little different. I'm sure they still look at coats of changing the design verses the dangers of doing nothing. A few large lawsuits against Festool will have a bigger impact on the company than say, General Motors. Buy first there has to be a genuine problem not just isolated incidents.

I also think it's important to point out this is very unlikely to be a wide spread problem so comments about recalling the Kapex are premature at best. There have been a handful of incidents with the blade guard that I'm aware of, most relating to debris in the guard causing it to get stuck. I'm not suggesting the the saw couldn't be well severed by a redesigned guard but that's is far beyond my expertise to decide. I guess what my point is let's not start a panic over an issue that seems to be very isolated incidents. The good news is that anyone having this problem can get it fixed correctly by Festool.

Well I wouldn't agree that the Festool statistics for problems is less than the threshold used in the motor industry for recalls. Only a tiny fraction of Kapex users would belong to any forums let alone report faults and the fact that faults have been reported on a couple o these is enough to indicate a systemic issue. In the motor industry there does not always have to be fatalities to recall vehicles but the recent recall of around 650,000 vehicles by Honda was linked to only a single fatal accident. It could have easily been dismissed as isolated except that motor vehicle problems are reported by the media which will always cause public opinion to side with the consumer. Issues with industrial power tools are not covered by the popular media which is all the more reason to be vigilant.

As to being alarmist, we have had at least one person who came very close to a serious industry and who received quite a shock in the process. We are are talking about the safety of people here, there is no room for any other consideration and manufacturers should have the same degree of concern. After all, if the failure of a safety guard is no big deal, why have them in the first place?

I really don't think there is room for the Tobacco Industry style of defence here which was to deny the bleeding obvious and pretend nothing is wrong. I know there are currently no reported deaths or serious injuries due to this fault but as responsible people i suggest we would be letting ourselves down to give Festool a slap on the back and a "well done" in this safety issue for only fixing units that fail and which are reported under warranty, and without concern for all the other users.

I saw this link to another machine which was recalled due to safety issues. Only three incidents reported and no injuries but the distributor did a voluntary recall. Good on them for that.

Ridgid Table Saws Sold Exclusively at Home Depot Recalled by One World Technologies Due to Laceration Hazard

It is important to make others aware of incidents with tools; it is equally important to keep perspective.

Prior to the internet, manufacturers had the luxury of (largely) controlling information on tool failures and dangers and, unless it was a real safety problem, they could decide to continue selling them rather than fix them. With the advent of the internet and global searches, forums etc the end user has much better access to failure information.

As has been pointed out already, only a tiny fraction of incidents make it into the public gaze on the internet, and people using these tools in a trade situation may be inclined to "file a bit off" and get on with the job, rather than report it. Unfortunately, that does not assist others in knowing a guard *may* stick and not cover the blade; so good on you Sheddie for raising the incident here on the forums.

I also think many people miss the point about gauging a good company. All companies have faults with machines, what the user really wants to know is if they can trust the company to respond to their problem? I think in this instance the answer is yes, and reflects the added value in the purchase price for support.

This issue is more than a single failure of a tool, it is an opportunity for potential buyers to see how a company responds to a problem and for the support network to show their true colours. Thumbs up to Ideal Tools for doing so.

So, now it is up to Festool to review the overall situation with the product, is it a general issue? Is it worldwide? Should they use their network to contact users with a safety advisory, safety warning, partial recall or total recall? That takes a bit longer to work out.

Personally I have only seen two or three of these but I have not gone looking. Out of the many thousands sold around the globe maybe this is not too bad. However, if I was to buy one, I would definitely research the issue first and would appreciate the effort others go to record their lessons. This is, after all, the main benefit we all receive by following forums.

Balanced comment is key, from all parties.

i had a 13 year old fairly worn hitachi drop saw replaced with a brand new one because of faulty guards that had never been a issue for me. which i then sold and used the proceeds to go towards buying a kapex. still yet to be convinced it was worth the under $1000 it cost me thanks to a beaten up old saw. And may be less so now. the lack of full range of trenching bugs just to shoot off on a tangent.

Sliding compound saws were never really all that much chop @ trenching/tenoning. Whenever I'm cutting a lot of tenons , such as traditional sash windows, I prefer my old DeWalt Radial Arm with a Dado head/Wobble saw attachment. The newer saws forte is at compound mitreing, whereas Radial arms are best for trenching, rebating and tenoning. They're at least 5 times as fast (with the appropriate attachments), and cleaner, neater and more accurately repeatable than sliding saws. Just don't try to use one for ripping: an extremely slow, messy and potentially hazardous enterprise!

UPDATE.
The Special Oversize Container to pack the Kapex in arrived at my door from Festool yesterday. Complete with packing instructions. On its way Tuesday I reckon.
Cheers
Sheddie in the Shed

What do ya know, mine has started doing the very same thing...If I hadn't read this thread I probably wouldn't have taken as much notice.

it seems that this is becoming a common problem.

i was using the kapex for 10-12 hours on saturday and have experienced the same issue. the plastic guard gets caught in the up position. my hands are not near the blade, but it is still disconcerting.

i will be calling festool today to get mine fixed.

regards, justin.

Hey all, just a note to say that my KAPEX made the return trip to Tool Technics (Festool Australian Agents) and they gave my machine a good going over - replaced the blade guard with the newer version one and changed the compliance plate as well. 2 weeks there and back (and I live in the bush).

I want to say a public big thanks to Anthony at Ideal Tools for taking my issue up with the guys at Tool Technics even though I didn't buy the Kapex trough him. He is a star as far as I'm concerned. If more retailers were like him we wouldn't need Consumer Affairs.

I also want to give a big wrap toTool Technics for the prompt turn-around of my machine. It was well packaged and arrived at my door in excellent order and I'm back making sawdust with it.

Cheers
Mike
Sheddy in the Shed.

Onya Sheddie,Anthony & Tool Technics well deserved acclaim for raising and getting this issue to some resolution.

Cheers

Mike,
Could you send an email to Tooltechnic Service Dept. saying how happy you are. Too often these days good service is not adequately recognised.

Regards,

Rob

Just bought a kapex and was wondering how to tell if updated guard design/