Thread: Festool Market Strategy

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Go to a Festool forum and see how many think the Kapex is a good thing, even the converted don't seem to think so.

Is it possible you might be taking commentary from another well known Festool specific forum, where there are or were issues with the 120V Kapex motors that proved to be less reliable than one would hope?

I can only relate my personal impression and knowledge from what I have seen, but I have seen few, if any complaints along the same lines for the 240V Kapex. I will say I do own one, and it's a pure joy to use, and very accurate. I will also add that I have used few other SCMS's, and bought the Festool (as I have with a number of their other tools) as I've had enough of this "race to the bottom" in making things as cheaply as possible to gain a price advantage in the market.

I'd rather buy once, know the manufacturer will be there tomorrow to back the unit I bought, and get quality - but then, that's just my view on things. Others may choose to disagree, and that too is fine - it's why a free market can supply and satisfy both ends of the spectrum

Originally Posted by Spyro

I don't get the made in Germany argument to be honest. I don't really care where things are made, I only care how they're made.

I will say right now, I respect your point of view, and to an extent, I agree with you.

The challenge is differentiating the good and the bad from certain geographical sources - often the good stuff is only revealed years after purchase when it's still working, at which time it's far too late to buy said item as it's long removed from market.

I would also counter your thinking on geographical origin with the following point of view - I would think that a factory worker somewhere in Asia, likely on minimum wage and potentially more rudimentary working conditions is not going to put the same level of care and attention to detail into something as a reasonably paid factory worker in a European country, where the company culture revolves around quality merchandise. On that basis, one should expect better or worse products in general given the geographical source of those items.

Originally Posted by DomAU

Chris,

You seem to be really against Festool and you are of course entitled and welcome to your
Cheers, Dom

t

I am just doing the devil's advocate bit. i think that Festool have every right to do what they want with pricing and I also think that dealers really like it but at the same time I don't think is good value which is a different thing to quality and innovation. My impression from these type of threads is most of those complaining haven't got the money to buy Festool anyway. Festool do top quality tools, perhaps not as good as Mafelle but I am not buying because I don't think they are good value for the dollar spent which is another argument altogether.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Perhaps the tools and accessories should be labelled?

"This item has been granted exemption from price competition for 12 months".


.... consider what would go through the potential buyers mind.....

You know, I keep coming back to the reasoning of WHY pricing competition was implemented in the first place. It's interesting economic theory.

I can't understand why such exemptions aren't labelled as such. It is not possible for a consumer/buyer to properly assess the merits of the purchase without this information being present. The decision dynamic would be different if this were known. It's a shame that the sales figures are private (maybe they SHOULDN'T be for such exemptions).

according to the ACCC press release, the ACCC have accepted Festool Australia's argument that Festool's dealer network deserves protection from "free riders" in the premium tool market place.
In this context, a "free rider" is a retailer who invests nothing in sales support or market development -- relying on other retailers to provide these functions -- and thereby profits from the effort of others. In the short term "free riders" are a boon for individual consumers -- you can buy something at 20 to 30% less than what is being charged by full service retailers -- in the long term it can be very detrimental.

I didn't intend this to be an Economics 101 treatise, but I'm told free riding is a problem in many industries -- why take on and train an unskilled employee when your competitor down the road will just poach them once they have been trained at your expense.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

About 18 months ago, I was in the market for a Domino DF 500 (primarily to save time building a kitchen). The local price was around $1500. On-line (via eBay) was $900 including shipping costs from the UK (all that was needed was to change the plug). At that time it slid under the import duty cut off. HOWEVER, there then is the issue of warrantee - this is not recognised across countries by Festool - which is another way of enforcing local purchase and protecting their assigned agents.

Regards from Perth

Derek

One reason why I prefer to buy local ... so long as the extra cost is not exorbitant (as with my jigaw that I mentioned). Plus, I actually like to support local businesses (so I avoid Bunnings - {grins} - they are not local to me plus they are a corporate s*&^%$).

@ Chris Parks: Bosch Blue is not made in China. I have a shipload of them, some made in Germany, some made in Mexico, some in Malaysia, some Switzerland; none in China.
I've 3 batteries and, maybe, 6 'skins' plus three mains powered gadgets (ROS, track saw, router). No China.

Off topic aside: at one stage some 10 years ago Bosch started making washing machines in China. We got one, our friend got one. We didn't know about the origin at the time, until we received them. Crap plastic, buttons broke, handle broke, practically out of the box. Rust after a few months. A year later I noticed that the same washing machines were no longer made in China, but in Mexico .... Bosch wised up it seems.

...but THIS Mittelstand is relevant to WHOLESALE pricing, not the restricted inability of the retailer to reduce the retail price!

Originally Posted by fubar

Chris and his team at the Toolhouse Sth Dandenong
I can try every tool before buying ( premium dealer) where else can you do that.
I don’t even have to go in anymore I’m regularly visited by staff asking what i need.
if one of my Festools has an issue (and it does happen) replacement tool while being repaired.

It seems to me that you are a big purchaser of Festool (or other equipment from them). They KNOW you have money to spend so you get looked after. Just good business practice!

Originally Posted by P.W.H.

A year later I noticed that the same washing machines were no longer made in China, but in Mexico .... Bosch wised up it seems.

Current as of 4 years ago - Bosch is made in China (at least for the Australian market). I knew the Bosch certification manager at the time and had a lengthy conversation with him about it.

Originally Posted by cava

Current as of 4 years ago - Bosch is made in China (at least for the Australian market). I knew the Bosch certification manager at the time and had a lengthy conversation with him about it.

Yeah, this is what I heard/have seen, as well. All of my Bosch blue are Germany, Switzerland and a couple from Malaysia. All have done very well and some have been through a lot and are holding up great. I was worried when I saw Bosch blue starting to be sold in Bunnies - figured they would pressure them to cut cost (and quality) etc.

Cheers, Dom

We thought it was going to be a major issue when first announced. To be honest I could count the complaints to the ruling that didn’t buy on one hand. It was & still isn’t easy work for festool, there is a lot of work in the background to be compliant which costs them a lot to keep a stable market for the end user. Whilst the pricing has been fixed to some extent the offers & added bonuses have never been to the level they are today & continue to be. I know some would still not be happy but from our side & customers we have been dealing with it seems to be fine😥

Originally Posted by MrFixIt

It seems to me that you are a big purchaser of Festool (or other equipment from them). They KNOW you have money to spend so you get looked after. Just good business practice!

Can only comment re the Festool dealer I used to patronise on Sydney's Northern Beaches. (Northern Abrasives & Tools at Brookvale)
Apart from consumables, my tool purchases would have been a once every three or four years, but the customer focused service Fubar describes was my experience every time I went to the store -- even if I was only "kicking tires"

I own four Festool tools (actually three Festool and one Festo). For three of them I walked into the dealer and said “I’ll take one of those please”. The fourth was an online purchase. I don’t get the argument about superior pre-sale service. I do all my research online. That way I know it’s unbiased.

I've used the same 2 dealers over the past 30 odd years of ownership, apart from a couple of private imports in 1984 from the UK & the odd second hand purchase. Since both dealers were "fired" a couple of years ago (incidentally immediately subsequent to the ACCC's Resale Price Maintenance ruling), I'll never buy another. Anywhere, anytime, ever.

One showed me the short, curt, callous letter of dismissal he'd received. Effective immediately. No warning, no timeframe of disengagement, no offers of return & refunding redundant stocks. No "thank you for the past 30 odd years of service", no "what can we do to work together to march hand-in-hand toward the brave new world of the future". I was appalled.

The concept of Mittelstand cuts all ways, in all directions of the supply, manufacture, distribution, marketing, community and end-user matrix. It's about corporate responsibility, cooperation, loyalty & trust, which simply doesn't apply here. It certainly doesn't represent corporate sociopathy. To me, and for me, this smacks of "The Final Solution". Given that any one individual segment of a supply chain (including me as an end-user) by default represents all, there's just no place in my workshop any more for the product of Germany's shame.

Originally Posted by VEK TOOLS

We thought it was going to be a major issue when first announced. To be honest I could count the complaints to the ruling that didn’t buy on one hand. It was & still isn’t easy work for festool, there is a lot of work in the background to be compliant which costs them a lot to keep a stable market for the end user. Whilst the pricing has been fixed to some extent the offers & added bonuses have never been to the level they are today & continue to be. I know some would still not be happy but from our side & customers we have been dealing with it seems to be fine😥

Yes, of course you could count on one hand the number of complaints. People could not be bothered wasting their time, knowing that nothing would happen.
Festool are NOT there to keep the market stable for the END USER! They are there for FESTOOL!!
I have no problem with the price fixing if they can get away with it good luck to them. The problem I have is with the enormous price.
I have no doubt that Festool products are superb in every way except price. Festool are catering for the "elite" woodworker that has the money to spend and does not need to consider prices. Agian good luck to Festool for capturing a market.
To buy a modified biscuit joiner AKA the domino, I need to pay three to five times the price of a decent biscuit joiner, why? The biggest domino "kit" is about seven times the price of a capable biscuit joiner.
Again, good luck to them for being able to do so!
I think Festool have deprived themselves from a much larger market by having such high prices, that in my opinion cannot be justified by their tools, even though they are good.
Yes, I would like to possess some Festool products, *IF* I could justify the price, but my "cheapy" Makita brushless tools work just as well at a fraction of the price and my Makita biscuit joiner still does a fantastic job.
If Festool has to do "a lot of work in the background" then why would they bother if not for the high profit margins they reap?
As I said before I have nothing against Festool other than their ridiculously high prices.

Originally Posted by MrFixIt

To buy a modified biscuit joiner AKA the domino, I need to pay three to five times the price of a decent biscuit joiner, why? The biggest domino "kit" is about seven times the price of a capable biscuit joiner.

I love my Modified Biscuit Joiner It's fantastic! I make little chairs with it and it does a perfect job, every time. Super excellent machine.