Thread: Festool and price fixing

Originally Posted by crowie

and while I'm not a Festool user, I struggle with the HUGE DISPARITY between North American and UE to that which we are charged in Australian and is IMHO criminal.....

This comes up every time, the price in the US. In fact the users in the US are equally vocal as they think they are getting ripped off the same as we do.

Popcorn time.

Originally Posted by Bob38S

It surprises me that there has not been a similar Asian copy of the domino at a reasonable price.

Patents etc have been worked around before to fill a demand especially when the alternative has a high margin. Perhaps the demand is not there at this time.

When the patents expire, you can count on it. And I say this with some irony, I reckon the Domino is pretty decent value for money. It is a remarkable product. That said, the no-discount policy of Festool is repugnant. And I say this with some experience. I am in retail. One of the products I sell (and have sold for 25 years) is the equivalent of Festool in it's market-place. At it's height, there were a total of three retailers across Sydney. Naturally, we were all dedicated to making good money, particularly from a product which was very difficult to sell (MUCH more difficult than Festool), but at no time were restrictive trade practices put in place and the products were normally sold at somewhat discounted prices.

I understand why retailers like to keep their margin (we all like to make a Buck). The consumer, however, is being shafted by Festool by these previously highly illegal practices.

Originally Posted by Zaphod

I am in retail. One of the products I sell (and have sold for 25 years) is the equivalent of Festool in it's market-place. At it's height, there were a total of three retailers across Sydney. Naturally, we were all dedicated to making good money, particularly from a product which was very difficult to sell (MUCH more difficult than Festool), but at no time were restrictive trade practices put in place and the products were normally sold at somewhat discounted prices.

Care to name names?

I am always on the lookout for alternatives.

Originally Posted by cava

Care to name names?

I am always on the lookout for alternatives.

I was not referring to tools, as my business is audio.

Originally Posted by Zaphod

I was not referring to tools, as my business is audio.

Sorry, my mistake.

There's always the option to write to the ombudsman or the relevant federal minister. One voice by itself won't count for much but if other people do it then it may start something.

At the end of the day the price is the price, but we as consumers should stand a reasonable chance of being able to secure a better deal. Being able to fix the price is not good for us. At least we should be able to secure a deal. If, for example, I wanted an MFT with all the goodies, there could be an incentive to get the track saw too. That way more units are moved.

Im not bagging out the tools, just challenging the pricing methods. In a free country we should be allowed to do this without having to defend that right.

Putting my cards on the table.

I would buy a domino + accessories + consumables tomorrow if it was a reasonable price. As I understand it, it is basically a grinder which has an oscillating bit which makes the mortise. Being asked to pay 10 to 15 times the price of a good grinder is beyond the pale.

I understand R&D costs money, development and testing takes time and money, tooling and manufacturing takes money, marketing takes money etc - don't have a problem with that. I understand the concept of recouping your costs and turning a profit is desirable and necessary but don't get greedy or you will find that no matter how good the product is it won't sell as widely as it could if it were reasonable. What's reasonable, I'm not sure but I do know that the current pricing I'm not prepared to pay, even if it was gold plated, made the coffee and kissed me good night when I left the shed.

The biggest advantage is the speed and repeatability, there are alternatives but these take time and not easily as accurate. The answer, I guess is, "Are you prepared to pay up the dollars for whatever advantage it provides whether real or perceived."

while we're on the topic ...

I'm a very infrequent visitor to Hungry Jacks, KFC or the Scottish burger place, but I seem to recall that the price of a burger is the same whether the store is in the centre of Sydney, within a Westfield development (where the rent normally includes a substantial proportion of a store's turnover) or in a country town where rents would be a fraction of those in Sydney.
Is this another example of retail price maintenance?
and if yes, why do we not complain?

Also, have you ever tried to buy a car without a trade-in?
there's not much price competition in that market either.


As a hobiest, I buy the tools I want and can afford.
but when I was a project manager, it was different -- I would buy any tool that saved money. While a shifting spanner will easily tighten a 26mm nut, replacing the shifters with 26mm ring spanners allowed the guard rail crew to increase their productivity (length of rail installed per hour worked) by so much it wasn't funny. In effect I could supply the crew with new spanners every day and still be way ahead by the end of a month.

In most furniture businesses, it's a similar story. The real cost is in the labour rate. and this is the market that Festool targets.
More than one poster here has commented that a Domino has paid for itself (in terms of time saved) on just one job.


Having seen the detrimental effect "free riders" can have on a small market, I'm prepared to wait and see whether Festool's arrangement with the ACCC is good or bad. So far, my experience, with Festool's premium dealers is overwhelmingly positive.

Originally Posted by ian

Also, have you ever tried to buy a car without a trade-in?
there's not much price competition in that market either.

I don't think that's true Ian. A friend has been a car salesman with Holden for 35 years. He told me that the new car department in most car dealerships loses money. The used car department makes a small profit, but most of the profit comes from the Service department.

You're right about furniture businesses being able to justify paying Festool prices. My friend owns a furniture business and has three Dominos plus a selection of track saws and sanders.

My biggest gripe is Festool's inflexibility. I bought the TS55 + 1400mm guide-rail package recently. I would have preferred a longer guide rail, but there was option to upgrade to a longer rail. Why not?

Originally Posted by ian

while we're on the topic ...

I'm a very infrequent visitor to Hungry Jacks, KFC or the Scottish burger place, but I seem to recall that the price of a burger is the same whether the store is in the centre of Sydney, within a Westfield development (where the rent normally includes a substantial proportion of a store's turnover) or in a country town where rents would be a fraction of those in Sydney.
Is this another example of retail price maintenance?

Sort of, though, I suspect no one in their right mind would accuse Maccas and the others of over-charging. In any case, there are a myryad of (superior) alternatives.

Originally Posted by ian

and if yes, why do we not complain?

We can and do complain. I've done so and received apologetic letters and free meal offers in return. I've NEVER received an offer of anything for free from Festool, despite my reasonable complaints.

Originally Posted by ian

Also, have you ever tried to buy a car without a trade-in?
there's not much price competition in that market either.

Now I know you're taking the . I've had the need to purchase a couple of cars in recent years. No trade-in. Just by checking out a couple dealers, I was able to save more than $1,500.00 on the purchase price of $17,000.00 on one and almost $2,000.00 on another. Car dealers are always ready and willing to deal. Even Mercedes dealers.

Originally Posted by ian

As a hobiest, I buy the tools I want and can afford.
but when I was a project manager, it was different -- I would buy any tool that saved money. While a shifting spanner will easily tighten a 26mm nut, replacing the shifters with 26mm ring spanners allowed the guard rail crew to increase their productivity (length of rail installed per hour worked) by so much it wasn't funny. In effect I could supply the crew with new spanners every day and still be way ahead by the end of a month.

In most furniture businesses, it's a similar story. The real cost is in the labour rate. and this is the market that Festool targets.
More than one poster here has commented that a Domino has paid for itself (in terms of time saved) on just one job.


Having seen the detrimental effect "free riders" can have on a small market, I'm prepared to wait and see whether Festool's arrangement with the ACCC is good or bad. So far, my experience, with Festool's premium dealers is overwhelmingly positive.

They're just sales-people. Nothing more. Festool is another tool brand. Many of their products are good and arguably good value for money and others are not. Same as Bosch, AEG, Makita and the others. I can buy almost any other brand I want at a competitive price. Except Festool.

I have removed 2 potentially libellous statements from 2 different posts by the same forum member.

Could I suggest that people read this forums' Terms of Use - TOU

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f90/woodwork-forums-terms-conditions-tou-198339

especially where they refer to defamatory/libellous postings.

Any further posts along those lines will not be edited but deleted.

So, please keep this discussion within the forum TOU or the thread will be closed.

To me it is like anything, if you don't like the deal don't buy it. They have the occasional bargain as the Protool drills were this year but apart from that they can stick the rest where the sun does not shine as far as I am concerned. I don't understand why people keep bashing their head against a brick wall to be honest, walk away and ignore the brand. I doubt the hobby market really concerns them too much, the trade end is what they are big in.

No Problem Big Shed, will pay particular attention to what I write. I think we all need to remember we cannot fix the problem within this forum.

As far as pricing is concerned, I purchased a new motorcycle for my wife a while ago. The motorcycle was a Suzuki GSX650F, brand new. I rang three vendors for their best price.

Vendor 1 = $13,200
Vendor 2 = $11,999
Vendor 3 = $10,000

This was a ride away price from three vendors. I asked each respective shop what their best price was, and did not play any off against each other. The third vendor got my business. This was for the same identical piece of equipment. Now, motorcycles are like high end power tools. We usually don't need either, both are purchased because people want them. I don't think it is unreasonable to be able to do the same thing with a track saw or an MFT3.

Regards
Graham

I see some manufacturers price gouging but to be frank I don't think Festool is in that category. The price is elevated but not excessively so. Some manufacturers are charging a 100% premium, even when the AU$ was at parity or better.

As for the price/quality of Festool products I think that yes, maybe they are charging a lot but in terms of what you get I think the charge is not excessive. I hear people from all of the world (especially Europe) will buy nothing but Festool since they are so rugged.

I used to sell power tools as a job and have had and used a lot of power tools over the years, but I am not using them in my profession but I do a lot of handywork as well as woodworking.

The quality of the materials used, the build quality, the features and attention to detail IMHO warrants the price of the tool. Any one of these can be said of a number of professional tools but Festool seem to have brought all of the features together. I only have a few Festool tools but am more than impressed at its quality and features.

I think that Festool is in the category of you get what you pay for.