Thread: Festool Price Maintenance...or not?

Another observation:
It has been about 3½-4 years since I did extensive research on Festool prices, comparing Germany (dealer), USA, and Australia. Across something like 400+ part numbers, at that time there were a very few items (non-mains power) that were worthwhile getting from the USA. The vast majority (something like 95%) were all cheaper in Germany, and I also noted that the prices varied somewhat between dealers within Germany. Dealer A would have cheaper this and more expensive that and so it went on.

It was also about then that I started to see some of the Australian pricing come closer into line with Germany. Not a whole bunch, but certainly some movement.

The takeaway there is that if you are looking to purchase something then prices need to be constantly compared between USA, Germany and here. It seems to me that they are forever shifting.

Originally Posted by Midnight Man

.....Note I'm going to leave in local taxes in all comparisons, as ours will also include GST. All prices sourced from Festool sites in the local market (see links).....

Thanks MM

For comparison purposes taxes are almost irrelevant except for the USA:

• Australia - 5% customs + 10% GST and you pay GST on the customs duty, total c.16%.
• UK and EU - VAT around 20% (varies by about 2% depending on country),
• USA - low sales tax - 2.5 to 5% - in some states only, others tax free.

But, of course, if you buy from UK and EU then you avoid VAT but incur freight charges. Customs and GST may, or may not, be levied on arrival in Aus - system is presently inconsistent.



Cheers

Graeme

So it seams the long and short of it all is it is a storm in a teacup, the differences between them is beer money. ( not wanting to trivialise the importance of beer

Does anyone want to scream about the disarity in Bosch prices now?

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

• USA - low sales tax - 2.5 to 5% - in some states onlt, others tax free.
• Customs and GST may, or may not, be levied on arrival in Aus - system is presently inconsistent.

• Anything from 0 up to 10-11% depending on your postcode within the state itself (they also have local taxes.

GST on imports is actually reasonably simple, and consistent. Packages over $1000 get taxed at our border as has always been the case.
Under $1000:
If the dealer sends more than AUD70,000 per year to Australia they have to be GST registered and remit to the Aust Govt every quarter. You will be charged GST at the checkout.
If the dealer does not send AUD70,000 here then there will be no GST charged at the checkout, and none charged upon entry to Australia either. (hint: look for a dealer who does not send much to Australia).

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Does anyone want to scream about the disarity in Bosch prices now?

Nuh. Already got a Kapex (local purchase) so it doesn't affect me. Was just using it a little while ago and marvelling at the MMC electronics for motor speed consistency when cutting a 250x50mm She Oak board.

Originally Posted by Beardy

So it seams the long and short of it all is it is a storm in a teacup, the differences between them is beer money.

It's a little more nuanced than a broad sweeping and dismissive statement, should you care to do some research to back up what you are saying

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Domino Set & Systainer in Germany $1477 (€901), in Australia $1799 (~22% more), so there's a pretty significant difference there.

(and that response quoted there was a response to something you posted - did you read it?? If you did, why ignore it? Doesn't fit with your argument?)

Here's an example of a Domino Set from Germany. Local price is €799 inc 19% VAT. If you purchase that it will be €671 without VAT so $1100 (at 0.61), plus $110 GST, plus about $66 freight, so $1276 landed at your door.

So that's a $523 saving. That is a helluva lot of beer to fit into your teacup.

Like I say, it just depends on the product and where, and due diligence is required by the purchaser.
Thread posters could also do some due diligence too, of course, unless trolling is the purpose?


So why is Price Fixing so anti-competitive and against the best interests of the consumer? Well, if Festool.de had their way that same Domino set would be uniformly sold for .... wait for it....a whopping €247 or 31% more.

I mean really, does anyone need to be convinced to save 31% on that?
How the hell does price fixing benefit the consumer?
How does every other (Festool) market in the world survive then, if price fixing is such a good thing?
All that it means here is that the non-premium shops (who aren't forced to hold $100,000 or more of stock and devote huge floor space to the display to qualify for "Premium") make a bigger profit margin than the Premium dealer. SO I can still get either a home demo, a Premium shop demo, and then got to a non-Premium dealer and cut some sort of deal (Festool will still be the same price or they get busted because they are forced to fax in the invoice, but some other stuff can be thrown in as a sweetener).

Fence Furniture I was responding to Midnight Mans research but I don’t doubt you would still be able to find examples that buck that trend
As per my previous post my personal experience dealing with the corporate world show the desparities as well
Whether the pricing structure is fixed or variable you are are still going to get variations in buy prices as I am sure you are aware
Have a look at how cheap you can buy genuine Toyota car parts for from O/S to what they are here, the variations happen in all facets of commerce

Originally Posted by Beardy

Fence Furniture I was responding to Midnight Mans research

At 8.18am I had already highlighted that there was in inadvertent flaw in MM's figures:

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

That's a huge and tedious effort MM, but unfortunately not actually indicative of what people pay in Germany or anywhere else in Europe.

At 10.37am

Originally Posted by Beardy

So it seams the long and short of it all is it is a storm in a teacup, the differences between them is beer money.

So even though there was an update on MM's thoroughly detailed post, more than two hours later you were still responding to his post from last night and ignoring the update? (even though you had already responded at 7.24am)


Now you might be thinking that I'm just being pedantic, but accuracy in a debate of this nature is important. Not only you have made sweeping statements with nil research or evidence to back them up (or even knowledge of the Festool system, of which you have said you are not a user), the statements are inaccurate and as such are to be challenged. Arguments deserve to be analysed and if necessary demolished, as they have been.

Due diligence, research, knowledge, facts, detail, ambivalence. All excellent aids to mounting an argument that can be taken seriously and respected.

Furthermore, it's not that there will "still be examples that buck that trend" (in that Aust prices are not too bad) - it's the other way around. There seems to be a growing number of examples (albeit still fairly small as far as I have seen) where Aust pricing is not too bad. If you don't like that statement then go off and do some research to prove it wrong - I'm more than happy to be proved wrong if that is the case!

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Does anyone want to scream about the disarity in Bosch prices now?

Hi Chris

Please note that I was referring specifically to white goods - one importer/distributor is particularly rapacious.



Cheers

Graeme

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

At 8.18am I had already highlighted that there was in inadvertent flaw in MM's figures:


At 10.37am


So even though there was an update on MM's thoroughly detailed post, more than two hours later you were still responding to his post from last night and ignoring the update? (even though you had already responded at 7.24am)


Now you might be thinking that I'm just being pedantic, but accuracy in a debate of this nature is important. Not only you have made sweeping statements with nil research or evidence to back them up (or even knowledge of the Festool system, of which you have said you are not a user), the statements are inaccurate and as such are to be challenged. Arguments deserve to be analysed and if necessary demolished, as they have been.

Due diligence, research, knowledge, facts, detail, ambivalence. All excellent aids to mounting an argument that can be taken seriously and respected.

Furthermore, it's not that there will "still be examples that buck that trend" (in that Aust prices are not too bad) - it's the other way around. There seems to be a growing number of examples (albeit still fairly small as far as I have seen) where Aust pricing is not too bad. If you don't like that statement then go off and do some research to prove it wrong - I'm more than happy to be proved wrong if that is the case!

Not sure what you are referring to, your figures are not much different to MM so what are you saying?

If you want to talk facts where did I say I was not a Festool user? The tracksaw and driver in my shed must belong to someone else?

Look the debate is that we are being ripped off and that we should be able to haggle for a bargain. The examples put forward show in general that is not the case, yes you can find specific examples but you can do that with any brand tool on the web and they are not fixed priced items so the result is the same.
Your whole focus as a hobbyist is price, business users of the products value the other aspects the brand brings.
I don’t really see the need to go further with this, we are talking about a very small sector of the market and then talking about an even smaller sector of consumer of that product that is wingeing.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

.......
Due diligence, research, knowledge, facts, detail, ambivalence. All excellent aids to mounting an argument that can be taken seriously and respected.

Furthermore, it's not that there will "still be examples that buck that trend" (in that Aust prices are not too bad) - it's the other way around. There seems to be a growing number of examples (albeit still fairly small as far as I have seen) where Aust pricing is not too bad. If you don't like that statement then go off and do some research to prove it wrong - I'm more than happy to be proved wrong if that is the case!

Good Morning FF

I think that you have pretty well nailed it.

I import quite a lot of stuff and the critical questions are landed costs Vs supplier risk plus warrantee risk. Some things are very competitively priced in Australia, other pricing can be extortionate.

Frequently, I am able to land goods in Aus for less than half of the best local retail price, occasionally considerably less.

• Example: Last year I priced a Henri Lloyd sailing jacket and pants in Australia at $1,250, and the local agent said it might take 10-14 days to get the product down to Hobart from Sydney. I bought the identical product from Scotland for $410 landed - asked for quotes at 10 pm Friday, confirmed order at 11 pm and the goods were delivered at lunchtime on Tuesday.

Sometimes Oz prices are lower, others they are only a little more expensive. Up to about 20% variance in landed cost then usually its not worth the risks of importing. Hard to argue with someone 10,000 miles away and no warrantee.

The difficult decision is where the discount is between 20 and 50%. Have to way up risks, how urgently I need the item, and reliability of local supplier - often the critical element. For example, I decline to deal with one prominent local supplier because of bad past experiences.

Like many things, with sourcing, the devil is in the details.



Cheers

Graeme





Frequently

Originally Posted by Beardy

Not sure what you are referring to, your figures are not much different to MM so what are you saying?

That's a joke right? I mean you are just trolling now aren't you? You call a a difference of 25% in sander accessories not much different? You call a difference in the Domino of 31% not much different? Even the sander at 16% or $145 is not much different? (and they are the only comparisons I made with MM's prices) Pffffft! If you want to be taken seriously then talk facts man, not rubbish.

Originally Posted by Beardy

If you want to talk facts where did I say I was not a Festool user? The tracksaw and driver in my shed must belong to someone else?

I thought I had read that you said you weren't a Festool user. Mea culpa.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

That's a joke right? I mean you are just trolling now aren't you? You call a a difference of 25% in sander accessories not much different? You call a difference in the Domino of 31% not much different? Even the sander at 16% or $145 is not much different? (and they are the only comparisons I made with MM's prices) Pffffft! If you want to be taken seriously then talk facts man, not rubbish.

I thought I had read that you said you weren't a Festool user. Mea culpa.

Yes I am saying a couple of hundred bucks is nothing comparing our prices to others and nowhere near enough to prompt me to buy O/S. I would buy consumerables O/S though but not a tool with such small savings V the dealer warranty support.
Go and do the same comparison search on say a Makita product and you will get consistent variables. Do it on any product in fact and the same applies.

No problem with the tool ownership error, I am happy to buy their tools if it is justified, a lot of their product even though I am sure is better is not necessarily needed and there are more economical choices that fit my needs


I wonder if some of the other countries are complaining about how good a price we get here compared to theirs

This is not directed at you FF but I was just thinking about this whole debate.
if Festool sold their product exclusively from company owned stores like say a company like IKEA does, would that change people’s perception on this whole price fixing thing? Even though the pricing was consistent in every store you entered? Do people do price checking on IKEA stores around the world and think we are getting scammed and mail order from the USA?

Maybe I am stupid but I honestly really struggle to understand the difference between any product being offered at a set price like they are by numerous company owned retail outlets and a product being sold under a pre agreed arrangement via a third party retailer or franchisee with a set price.
From the consumers point of view the outcome is the same, back of house there is a different business legal structure but that is irrelevant to the consumer

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Here's an example of a Domino Set from Germany. Local price is €799 inc 19% VAT. If you purchase that it will be €671 without VAT so $1100 (at 0.61), plus $110 GST, plus about $66 freight, so $1276 landed at your door.

So that's a $523 saving. That is a helluva lot of beer to fit into your teacup.

I was looking at that link and I thought it funny that the seller with the Domino hundreds cheaper than it is here, had the cutters to suit around 32 euro each, when a systainer of over 1000 dominos and full set of all 5 cutters here is $323, and then I looked at Festool Aus and saw they sell the individual cutters for $75 each! Wow!

Clearly all sellers want to push customers into a certain buying direction by making pricing of what they want to sell look more attractive compared to the components or other items, but even so $75 each is really quite bizarre pricing.

It's like the machine shop that doesn't really want to make fongdangle squizzle widgets as standard, so prices them ludicrously high in the hope no-one buys them, but if they do they pay through the nose!