Thread: Are we being ripped off ??

Originally Posted by lesmeyer

I am looking at getting the OF 1400 to use with my Leigh D4R. To use the OF 1400 with the Leigh jig, one needs the guide bush adapter part # 493566. This is not available in AUS. Not sure where to obtain it. The OF 1400 sells for US450 in the USA and it includes the adapter as well as the 8mm collet that is not included in AUS package. These 2 parts will cost about $130 AU (collet is $90 and assume the adapter will be about $40 if it is available) and the router costs $970 AU for a total of $1100 AU. The US price converts to about $480 AU. (Seems the stronger AUD has only helped the suppliers).
Something is horribly wrong here - or I must be the biggest idiot in OZ.
Angrily Yours
Les

Hi Les,

I don't usually comment on Festool pricing as for me it is usually a no win situation with people having their minds made up already. Especially by forum members who don't even want or intend to own something Festool but feel compelled to pop into this forum and make negative comments. But... having Festool users highly satisfied with their Festool gear and feeling well served by it is important to me, and as dollars are involved obtaining the gear people need to feel comfortable and not like they are being ripped off. So I will give your question a go from my perspective as a Festool dealer and owner who has brought a lot of Festool gear with my own hard earned money. Also as an observer of what others have argued on the topic.

This question comes up in many Festool forums, and is argued about by the Yes and No factions until the cows come home. And the argument often goes along the lines of :

• Wow they are so cheap in the US, therefore we are paying too much.
• But look at Europe (even Germany) and we seem to pay about the same as there - therefore we aren't doing too bad considering freight costs these days.
• Everything in the US seems cheaper than here - not just Festool.
• Well their wages are lower than ours so that makes sense.US consumers don't thing they are that cheap over there, possible because of lower pay rates and associated factors.
• But if they can sell them there for that price why not here?
• We don't have the population here to support a price structure like they must have in the States (applicable to other products not just Festool). And North America is less expensive to ship good to and Australia from Germany.
• Then the conversation runs into the details of all the above discussion including comparisons of wages, welfare systems, tax systems, on and on and on.

So both sides never win the argument and each is left to their own to determine if they are getting value for their money.

May I comment on price comparisons: Our dollar is strong against the US$ but these tools are not imported from US, but Germany. How is our dollar doing against the Euro, I don't know, but that is what it should be compared against. Also, this year Festool tools went up by approx CPI as you would expect, but no one noticed that the previous few years Festool seemed to increase less than CPI - by my rough calculations.

I will point out a couple of things about the OF1400 comparison. Although they get the adaptor copy ring, the US does not get the 30mm copy ring included. They do get the 8mm collet which is an advantage. Both the adaptor copy ring and 8mm collet seem clearly targeted at supporting Leigh jigs. I expect (do not know for sure) this is less of a priority here in Aus, and Festool ensure that the bulk of users are satisfied with the collets they need here and supply the 1/4 and 1/2 collets. They could include an 8mm collet but that would drive the price up by some amount for a number of users who will never use it because they do not have a Leigh jig or use 8mm bits. Also note, the North American OF1400 does not have the electronic brake ours has.

This may not convince you one way or another, but I thought I would put pen to paper on this topic for once in case it helped.

Originally Posted by nt900

Hi Les,

........... Especially by forum members who don't even want or intend to own something Festool but feel compelled to pop into this forum and make negative comments.................

Anthony, I do in fact own some Festool (Domino and CT22E). So I am not just popping in with a comment and then running. I am also serious about getting the OF 1400. I am however disappointed that the copy ring adapter is not even a standard advertised accessory for Festool AUS. I am sure other people also use the OF 1400 with the Leigh jig. I now know that it can be ordered from ToolTechnic in Melbourne.
Regarding your comments about the price is fair. But at 130% more expensive here that in the USA - that can not be justified by higher volumes and transport costs. Bearing in mind that the guys in Europe are in a similar situation to us here in OZ, the only conclusion I can come to is that we are subsidizing the prices in the USA. I am sure that if there was price parity, they would not have the sales volumes that they now have in the USA.
Other German tools are more expensive here than in the USA, but not by 130%. It is more like 30 - 40 % when I last looked at the prices of DeWalt and others.
Regards
Les

Les,

Festool has good gears and that is a fact. How much they want to sell it to you is up to them but to buy it or not is up to you. I guess they do it because they can.

I have been close to buying a Domino but I didn’t. Let wait and see.

Hi Les,

I was not accusing you of hit and run at all, I know you don't do that - but some do. Yours is a valid question and I was just passing on the info I have.

The adapter is available here we get requests for them occasionally. But my exposure to customers indicates a minority have dovetail jigs and a sub-set of those have the Leigh.

I am actually surprised Festool USA put the adaptor copy ring in the scope of delivery. It is counter to what you expect a company to do which is supply accessories which might drive users away from other products like Festool's own VS600 dovetail jig, or to a lesser extent the MFS templates. You can't blade a company wanting to encourage you to their own products, but Leigh must be so strong that Festool USA called it in favour of looking after Leigh jig owners. But as I would reiterate, Festool USA is an anomaly in the Festool world and do things differently than every other country Festool is represented (as far as I can tell). For whatever reasons Festool USA is different, and it is natural to compare what we have here to the US because we both use the $ sign for our currency and both communicate in English. So we read more of what's happening there and a US$ sound like AU$ and it's hard not to compare the two.

Someone who just returned from Germany reported to me that Festool gear here sells for the about the same as it does in Germany. So he expressed we are getting things pretty good here when it comes to Festool. Some other German tools he buys here he found out are 2x that of what they cost to buy in Germany. We did not discuss what that same brand costs in the US. Re Festool - the Americans are just doing a whole lot better..... for whatever reasons.

How about this - I will personally try and sell enough Festool gear to bring up our Oz volumes to equal that of the US. Then the tide may turn for us.

It’s annoying!

No one has really explained why Festool has decided to discount their tools so heavily for the US market. Let’s face it, it is only the US that is afforded this benefit, not even their home market in Germany has this benefit!

From this we must assume that we in the rest of the world are helping subsidize the US prices! It’s a very strange set up, I can think of no other product that has such a great disparage between pricing.

If the US was their only market I wonder how their pricing would be! Or is that it & we are incidental!

For me I cannot complain about any Festool tools I have, they are the best I have found & I am very happy with all my purchases, of which there are many. I can however say it’s bloody annoying to see those US prices!

If you are interested Les I did post an offer to anyone based in Perth for an 8mm collet for the OF 1400 which is still in its box.

I have a brand new packaged 8mm Collet, part number 492005 RRP $90.09

If anyone in Perth area is interested let me know, I'm open to offers or trades!

Originally Posted by Dustie

It’s annoying!

No disagreement from me.

I am not sure how many manufacturers sell their stuff cheaper in Australia, I'd hazard a guess that GMC and Triton may be cheaper in the States too (haven't looked). Every now and again a thread pops up with someone bemoaning the fact that Brand-X is cheaper in the US. Look at Panasonic, Makita, Sawstop, Delta, Hitachi etc, whilst the margins differ the theme is similar.

Anthony

As an Official Festool Dealer, I'm assuming you have put this question to Festool?

Can you share with us the answer they provided?

PS Why don't they use their tool points system here in OZ?

Hoppoz

Originally Posted by Hoppoz

Anthony

As an Official Festool Dealer, I'm assuming you have put this question to Festool?

Can you share with us the answer they provided?

PS Why don't they use their tool points system here in OZ?

Hoppoz

Hi Hoppoz,

Good question. I have never put to Festool 'hey - you guys are ripping us off here in Aus' because I believe we are getting a good price comparable to what is asked of Festool products in the majority of the world (as far as I can make our reading foreign web sites etc).

But I have previously expressed my own and customers annoyance about North American prices. You will understand that some information I don't feel I can share as it is commercial in nature, but what I can tell you does not contradict what we already know as a user community and bunch of reasonably intelligent people. The answer has been, as we expected, around volumes and breaking into new markets. Sorry no news, press release or hot gossip there.

Having said that, there is no point us all feeling peeved about something and not trying to satisfy our 'curiosity', so I am happy to ask the question again and pass on what information I can.

I doubt we are subsidising US pricing. If we were we were doing it before the US market really opened up as we have not had a noticeable price increase (that I know of) since Festool started selling there, things have been pretty steady here since I started buying Festool gear which I think is about 7 years ago.

Les,

I asked the question of Festool a couple of years ago regarding the price of their rotex sander and consumables compared to the us. When I asked, the cost of a box of 100 180grit Brilliant discs was $115.39 in Australia and only $31.26AUD in the US for the same thing - nearly $80 bucks difference.

The reply was along the lines of due to the dollar going down against the euro.....

When I emailed back a couple of graphs showing the currencly actually moving in the other direction which should have been in our favour, they would not respond.

I have quite a number of festool tools because they are the best for what I need them for and I have no other purchasing option (until the US goes to 240V ). But as far as consumables go, I vote with my feet and buy all my consumables from the US at a significant discount. I asked my local Festool bloke if he could match the price and he couldn't.

Are we getting ripped off? I reckon we are.

FWIW

AD

It is my understanding that Festool USA is operating at a loss in an attempt to brake into the US market. Anthony is right, wages are lower here (in the US). Festool products are much more expensive than other tools, 150% to well over 200% more than the competitors products. If Festool products cost more in the US they wouldn't sell. If Festool can attain a larger share of the US market I believe they will try to bring their prices closer to what the rest of the world is paying. We pay a lot less for our consumables here then you guys do, the Festool parent company is very unhappy about that. Again, if the prices of consumables are too then people won't buy the tools in the first place, at least that's how things work here.

So why would Festool go to all the trouble to sell in the US, volume. We are a very large market, I'd guess we have a larger percentage of the population that buys power tool than the rest of the world. We have a lot of hobbyist and do-it-yourselfers. And of course professionals that buy a lot of tools. The potential here is great for Festool, the price will limit their success here. Yes, the tool cost less here, but with our economy being different, the tools are very expensive here too.

Guys,
I hope I have not offended anyone. I think that some of you have stated what I meant to say in the first place. I and some others are annoyed at the low prices of Festool in the USA more than anything else. I know that the margins on tools in OZ is not huge. I also respect that dealers are there to make a profit. I do not begrudge them that. I have compared the euro price of the OF 1400 in Germany and converted to AUD. It comes pretty close. I also know that Festool make excellent tools (I have the domino) and I will be purchasing the OF 1400. I am hoping that it will give me endless pleasure when using with the Leigh D4R.
Regards
Les

Originally Posted by lesmeyer

Guys,
I hope I have not offended anyone. I think that some of you have stated what I meant to say in the first place. I and some others are annoyed at the low prices of Festool in the USA more than anything else. I know that the margins on tools in OZ is not huge. I also respect that dealers are there to make a profit. I do not begrudge them that. I have compared the euro price of the OF 1400 in Germany and converted to AUD. It comes pretty close. I also know that Festool make excellent tools (I have the domino) and I will be purchasing the OF 1400. I am hoping that it will give me endless pleasure when using with the Leigh D4R.
Regards
Les

Hi Les,

No offence on my part, I share the annoyance. More to the point is the option of buying accessories form the US. For some Aussie Festool owners this is valid option - although I of course prefer if Aussies buy locally from Australian dealers to support them so they can support Aussie user in turn.

Enjoy the OF 1400 .

Edit - I also hope I did not offend Les or anyone else sharing the annoyance.

Originally Posted by nt900

Edit - I also hope I did not offend Les or anyone else sharing the annoyance.

Now we shall all join hands and sing kum-bay-ah, after which I shall repair to Woodcraft and buy some sandpaper for my 150/3 on the cheap.